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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 06/29/2001 : 18:18:32 [Permalink]
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This is a good discussion, but does belong in Politics or some other forum. It's a shame to thnk some forum readers might bypass it because the title of this thread does not even come close to describing the content of it now.
I will see if I can move a few individual posts.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 18:26:42 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer, Mabe I'm reading too much into your posts but you said the following:
quote:
We've kinda backtracked now and are discussing some of the origins of the political theories involved in the Constitution.
After which, you mentioned the Mayflower Compact as one of these. The Mayflower Compact was not really that important until the late 19th century. It's not much more than a footnote in American history stating that a few hundred people had to tolerate each other. The Iroquois Conferderation was discussed both before and during the framing of the US Constitution as a model of governance. It is a rule of law that has held together 5 to 6 nations of people in (relative) peace for hundreds of years. It exists to this day. Why did you learn only about the Mayflower Compact and not the 5 Nations of the Iroquois?
Victorian ethnocentrism. Mythmaking.
Regards,
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 20:29:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tokyodreamer, Mabe I'm reading too much into your posts
Probably. I'm just shootin' the breeze.
quote:
Why did you learn only about the Mayflower Compact and not the 5 Nations of the Iroquois?
Rest assured, I am anticipating the next opportunity to ask my current teacher the exact same question. I'll let you know the outcome.
My current teacher doesn't seem the type to consciously leave out anything he knows to be fact, but is prejudiced against. In fact, he seems a bit more 'liberal' than not. It seems to me that if he thought there was a bias about not teaching the Iroquois facts, he would gleefully tell us about it.
I would hesitate to categorize what I'm currently learning as 'Victorian ethnocentrism' or 'mythmaking'. I don't think I've given a decent representation of what's going on, though I've tried to touch on the edges of it, so I don't think you have enough information to come to that conclusion. You're hastily generalizing, methinks. But like I said, I'll ask about it, and let you know what he says. I'll start a new thread when I do.
Best wishes.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 03:49:02 [Permalink]
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Rubysue: Do you really think I care what your constitution says?
Fact is I don't give a shit what it says.
I'm also more likely to be looking forward to the 1st of July (the day smoking sections disappear from resturants here) then the 4th.
Whether any test can be unbaised is unlikely, whether the bias can be minimised to the point of being insignifant is not known, although I have known that such a system of qualifing voters would be very hard to implement and would have a lot of problems along the line of who writes the test, although many of those problems still exist in pretty much everything that has a test.
Whether such a system is to be implemented depends on what you want out of a political system, as does everything else we do.
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 06:43:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would hesitate to categorize what I'm currently learning as 'Victorian ethnocentrism' or 'mythmaking'. I don't think I've given a decent representation of what's going on, though I've tried to touch on the edges of it, so I don't think you have enough information to come to that conclusion. You're hastily generalizing, methinks. But like I said, I'll ask about it, and let you know what he says. I'll start a new thread when I do.
I apologise if I sound a little accusatory but American mythology really bothers me. I tend to seek the truth whether I will like it or not, thats how one learns. I must admit that the teaching of American history has improved since my day, I actually remember Betsy Ross being tought in school. One of the major problems remaining is that so much history has been omitted for so long that it's taking time to bring it back. Another problem is that American history textbooks tend to be written with the undefendable idea that somehow Americans were so unique, that without us there could have been no such thing as Democracy.
Regards,
Greg.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 11:34:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rubysue: Do you really think I care what your constitution says?
Fact is I don't give a shit what it says.
There's an intelligent argument, full of compelling logic and dramatic witticism. Sorry you don't care, but nobody said you had to, since you have obviously made up your mind on this subject. I merely used this information to point out where our rights came from in the US, not to attack you personally (I guess you don't approach discussions with the same objectivity). Bottom line: I do not want to live under a political system that finds ways to arbitrarily disenfranchise voters; you obviously do want such a system. Have you considered moving to Afghanistan or Iran, so that you can study a discriminatory model up close so that it can be applied in Australia?
Greg and Tokyodreamer: I agree that there have been many models for republics and democracies that have been created over human history. I also agree that our schools don't teach many of these and they tend to exaggerate the past. However, I still contend that the framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights were the first to uniquely establish our model of government because they drew on these resources and created the best concept of government. Where else was it being done in the world at that time? Europe was full of elitist monarchies and strong church influence. China and Japan were entrenched in feudal warlord empires. Africa was an enigma. Yes, the Iroquois had an excellent model, but their global influence was quite limited, to say the least. The model that came right after ours (France) is certainly not the same, if you research the outcome of their revolution and their constitution (recall that not long after the overthrow of the French monarchy, Napoleon found that he could easily come in and establish an empire because there were no checks and balances).
Comments?
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 06/30/2001 11:53:43 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 15:23:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Greg and Tokyodreamer: I agree that there have been many models for republics and democracies that have been created over human history. I also agree that our schools don't teach many of these and they tend to exaggerate the past. However, I still contend that the framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights were the first to uniquely establish our model of government because they drew on these resources and created the best concept of government. Where else was it being done in the world at that time? Europe was full of elitist monarchies and strong church influence. China and Japan were entrenched in feudal warlord empires. Africa was an enigma. Yes, the Iroquois had an excellent model, but their global influence was quite limited, to say the least. The model that came right after ours (France) is certainly not the same, if you research the outcome of their revolution and their constitution (recall that not long after the overthrow of the French monarchy, Napoleon found that he could easily come in and establish an empire because there were no checks and balances).
I agree. The framers of the Constitution took the ideas of Locke, Hume, Rousseau, et al and made them into a coherent governing system. I contend that they would not likely have had the know-how to form this type of government and make it work without a working model - however small, and with the knowlege that the citizens of that government had a totally different world-view.
Let me clarify my remarks on history education. I do not believe that there is a current Eurocentrist conspiracy in teaching American history. That happened 100 years ago and we are still suffering from it. I feel that the majority of teachers, if given the proper tools, resources, and freedom to run their own classrooms would teach history much better. The major problem is the textbooks!
Regards,
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 20:03:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
The major problem is the textbooks!
Quite right! Some organization recently did a study, and found, I think, that the average science textbook contains something like 500 errors. Anyone remember the details?
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2001 : 22:10:22 [Permalink]
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O.K. It was my fault for getting carried away with a topic on a bumper sticker right near the beginning of this subject and ruining the thread of the discussion. Perhaps I should rectify that error.
TOPIC: LEAST FAVORITE STUPID BUMPER STICKER
My least favorite stupid bumper sticker is impossible to discuss in a nice forum like this one, so you will have to use your own imagination. The trouble with this bumper sticker is that I had an inordinantly difficult time controlling my car because I was laughing so hard...
It could have been a disaster...
ljbrs
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 02:51:09 [Permalink]
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Rubysue: I'm not going to argue with someone who uses ad homenin attacks against me.
Why don't you actually attack my argument for a change, maybe you should read what I say more carefully.
I'm not saying that such a system should be implemented, but only that it might actually work rather well.
Of course that depends on what you want out of it, as does every policy choice we make.
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 02:59:32 [Permalink]
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It sounds very utopian, for those that call the shots and get to vote. For the rest they would live in a sort of dictatorship. And it would be so easy to slant the tests to favor a certain group. Things could go from bad to worse in a heartbeat.
Does anyone remember the Simpsons episode where Mensa took over Springfield? 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 05:20:06 [Permalink]
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Don't let Mensa run the place.
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 13:34:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rubysue: I'm not going to argue with someone who uses ad homenin attacks against me.
That's a laugh! I never personally attacked you in any of my arguments until you felt compelled to resort to childish taunts. I'm not the one who swore and then casually dismissed someone's careful research and objective arguments with single short incomplete sentences and no supporting logic for their viewpoint. You never made a coherent argument for your opinion, so what I am supposed to go back and read that can persuade me? I give up; the discussion with some of the other folks on this thread was quite nice, but, as in the case with the Dr. Dino cruise topic, certain immature and disturbing viewpoints and ideas have ruined any pleasure that I might have derived from the discussion.
By the way, all of my posts were made in an attempt to argue against the concept of voting tests. They were directed at the posts that you and lbjrs made because you broached the subject. I did not intend to offend, but I guess differing opinions are offensive just because they exist.
Atomic: You have said what I've been trying to say all the the way through this thread, but apparently my arguments are not compelling.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 07/01/2001 14:02:50 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 13:40:05 [Permalink]
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It's unfortunate that the medium of communication seems to be conducive to quick tempers and quick insults, and harsh contempt for others' ideas.
I don't agree with my friends or relatives in a lot of things, but I still like them. Here (the internet), the slightest disagreement more often than not generates snap judgements into peoples' entire character, when in fact, the people at the keyboard are so much more than what they type here.
Am I making any sense?
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 14:18:22 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer: That does indeed make sense. I'm still trying to figure out where I gave offense; if you go back and read my posts, you can see that I apologized profusely for the deadly sin of having an opinion at all because I did not want to offend anyone when I disagreed with them. I enjoyed my research into the voting amendments in the Constitution, I had fun writing about the "graces" and "anti-graces" as a way of explaining fundamental rights, and I derived satisfaction from an attempt to make a logically compelling argument against voting rights, using examples that were certainly never meant to be personal attacks. I observed how gracefully you and Greg exchanged thoughts on the origins of the rights in the Constitution. It was only after I was personally attacked with foul language and my deep thoughts casually dismissed with one sentence that I felt compelled to resort to similar insults. I think I may limit my visits to these boards from now on - many people clearly aren't interested in civilized discussions or learning and I don't need the stress or fear in my life.
  
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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