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dimossi
Skeptic Friend

USA
141 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2002 :  10:49:28  Show Profile  Visit dimossi's Homepage  Send dimossi an AOL message Send dimossi a Private Message
I received an e-mail reply from an individual with whom I had sent an article to recently regarding spanking. This is the article I sent:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020625/hl_nm/kids_spanking_1

His reply to my sending of that article was basically just bible verses that support spanking with comments between them. I plan on explaining to him that the bible can be used to justify just about anything (slavery, denying medicine, torture, killing, not eating certain foods, etc.)

What I would like help with is rebutting the comments made between the posting of the scripture. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Here is his reply:
quote:

What Does the Bible Say About Spanking Children?

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."

The practical wisdom found in these verses in the book of Proverbs covers the subject of child rearing and corporal punishment. Children who are not properly disciplined, are among the most miserable of children. Unruly and spoiled children are not the blessings that the Bible says they should be to parents. When a child is given no boundaries, they feel lost. If they have been given boundaries, yet those boundaries are not maintained, it causes great harm to a child, as they will not only be in dangerous territory, they will also lose respect for authority. This is where we find so many of the children and youth of today. They are rebels, who not only disrespect authority, but openly defy all authority figures such as teachers, policemen, clergy, and their own parents. The blame rests upon the parents of these children, if they have not heeded the advice given in this and other verses found in Proverbs.

This brings us to the subject of how we should discipline a child who disobeys the rules. There has been much debate on the subject of corporal punishment (the spanking of a child). Corporal punishment simply means bodily punishment while the definition of spank in Webster's Dictionary is: 1.) to strike with something flat, as the open hand, especially on the buttocks, as in punishment. 2.) to move along swiftly or smartly, a smack given in spanking. This is what the Bible says about spanking:

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. The Bible definition of a fool means one who is a rebel, so this is saying that all children have rebellion in them and when it surfaces, it is our duty as parents to drive it out of them. We are to do this by punishing them with a whack on the buttocks with a small reed-like rod. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point. That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them loss of their lives in some cases. (For instance, if a child tries to run across the street, they could be run over and killed.)

Some people say that all spanking is child abuse, but this is totally wrong. The real abuse to the child is not to spank them when they need correction. Of course, some parents, who themselves are out of control, can abuse their children by beating them in angry rages. This is child abuse, however, it does not justify doing away with spanking children if it is done properly, and for the right reasons. Parents who beat their children, need help themselves. They are sinful people and they not only will abuse their children by beating them, but will hurt them in other ways as well. Many times, these same children are left to go hungry and uncared for. They have no love. These kind of homes need the love of Christ so that the whole family can be healed. We are not to spank our children with uncontrolled anger, and thus hand out unjust punishment.

Proverbs 19:18(AMP): "Discipline your son while there is hope, but do not (indulge your angry resentments by undue chastisements and) set yourself to his ruin."

Proverbs 22:6: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Godly discipline will keep children from being dysfunctional later in life. We are told as Christian parents to train our children in the ways of the Lord and when he grows up, he will not depart from that training. Notice it says "train" not "teach." Many parents teach their children right from wrong, but have failed to "train" them to obey. Spanking is part of the training. Many parents yell and threaten their children, but never follow through with the proper punishment and therefore their children get their own way. A disciplined child will bring great delight to parents, while the child left alone will bring shame to the home.

Proverbs 29:15 &17(AMP):

15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left undisciplined brings his mother to shame. 17 Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your heart.

Ephesians 6:1-4:

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. 4 And, ye fathers, provoke


"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." [Philip K. Dick, science-fiction author]

Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2002 :  11:17:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
The Bible also talks about what punishment children, who curse their parents should get.

Ex.21:17 "he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."
Lev.20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."
Pr.30:17 "The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it."
Mt.15:4 " God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."


And that is not even going into the other examples of christian parenting in the Bible.

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2002 :  11:22:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
quote:

And that is not even going into the other examples of christian parenting in the Bible.



Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Which pretty much contradicts the OT. JHC wasn't interested in family relationships.



-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend

USA
141 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2002 :  14:40:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit dimossi's Homepage  Send dimossi an AOL message Send dimossi a Private Message
OK, here is my response to this guy. Any constructive criticism of my response would be appreciated.

quote:
Did this article line up more on your belief?


Did you read the article? First of all, this article is about an analysis of 88 different studies on spanking and smacking, not just one new study. You seem to be implying that this article is against spanking and that my "belief" against spanking is mirrored in the article. The second paragraph of the article reads:

"Spanking has become controversial in recent years, but in the United States, especially, remains a widely used form of discipline. Many studies on the effects of spanking have been done, but the findings vary."

This statement as well as the rest of the article is unbiased toward a particular "belief". The article is about scientific results, not some dogmatic statement. If you had said that the article's conclusion was in agreement with my logical conclusion that spanking is harmful, then you would have been correct.

The article admits that spanking is strongly linked with immediate compliance but also with 10 negative behaviors such as aggression. So it isn't like the article is saying that spanking doesn't have any positive results. I admit that continuing research is definitely needed, but I think that if you can have two forms of punishment that work equally well, the less violent approach would always be the one to use. In my opinion, non-spanking methods of punishment are the most reasonable, humane, compassionate ways of disciplining children.


quote:
Seems like every year the research says something different.


This is true and their are many variables that can be involved in how a child reacts to corporal punishment. The best we can do is continue to have more critical research done and analyses of the results. Since the research this article is referring to is an analysis of 88 different studies I would conclude that the results should be considered accurate and of value.



quote:
For myself I would rather go with something thats has been tried and proven.


What do you think research does? Don't these studies involve analyzing methods of punishment that have been "tried"? What does it take for something to be "proven" by your standards? Anecdotal evidence from a few family members and friends is not a scientific study that "proves" anything. Stating that oneself was spanked and still turned out OK, is not a logical means by which to spank one's own children either. There are many children throughout this world and history that were beaten, abused, molested, enslaved, and tortured, yet they turned out OK as well. I wouldn't expect any thinking person to use this reasoning to justify the continued use of these violent actions. Would you?


quote:
Obviously, this is a personal decision that each parent must make and be responsible for.


In this country it is currently a personal decision. As further evidence shows us the negative results of corporal punishment, this will probably change in the near future.

quote:
I think everyone will agree, that they want the best for their children.


I would hope so. But the "best for their children" is subjective. For example, about a month ago there was a story in the news about a child, named Samuel, who's parents belonged to a religious sect that, after having a bizarre prophecy, deprived Samuel, who was almost a year old, of solid food. These parents felt they were doing the "best for their child", because they felt that "God commanded it". Samuel died of starvation. Read the whole story here: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/157/metro/Witness_opens_windows_on_sect_life+.shtml

This is just one example. There are numerous stories like this where the parents believe they are doing the "best for their children" based on dogmatic revelation, but instead they were torturing and/or killing innocent children.

I would hope that you would agree then that to decide what form of punishment is the most effective and humane involves using reason, critical thinking, and the scientific method; not superstition.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Does the Bible Say About Spanking Children?


You are contradicting yourself here. Did you completely read what you cut-n-pasted in to this e-mail? Regarding spanking you said, "For myself I would rather go with something thats has been tried and proven." Then you cut-n-paste this bible-thumping bunk about what the bible says about spanking children. How is this "tried and proven"? The last thing the bible does is prove anything. Plus the bible can be used to justify just about anything (slavery, denying medicine, torture, killing, not eating certain foods, etc.) It is all subject to interpretation. Let's look at some examples:

Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Does this verse justify hating your family?

Lu 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Does this mean that marrying someone that has been divorced is committing adultery?

Lu 12:47 And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Jesus encouraged the beating of slaves. Does this justify slavery and the beating of slaves? Speaking of slavery, I challenge you to show me ONE piece of scripture that states that slavery is wrong.

Lev. 11:10-12 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Does this justify that clams, oysters, crabs, shrimp and lobsters are an abomination to eat?

According to Jehovah's Witnesses (JW), God forbids blood transfusions. Many JWs have needlessly died because the governing body considers blood transfusions to be "eating blood." Of course
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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2002 :  05:34:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
I would be careful with telling religious fanatics, that the Bible tells them to kill children who curse them. Few will be convinced by that and some might take it as justifiction.

From a recent article in the Philadelphia Inquirer

quote:

Man said his son was the devil
George O'Hara said he killed the 8-year-old for calling him names, a prosecutor said.

By Jacqueline Soteropoulos
Inquirer Staff Writer


A Southwest Philadelphia man told detectives that he stabbed his 8-
year-old son more than 100 times in April and killed him because the child called him names.

George O'Hara, 33, also told investigators he believed his child, Rory O'Hara, was the devil, according to testimony yesterday at a preliminary hearing in Municipal Court.

"I was walking with him, and he started to call me names - all kinds of names. I started to rough him up, then I started to cut him up," O'Hara told detectives, Assistant District Attorney Jodi Lobel said.

"The guy was giving me problems. That is why I kill him. Sir, what if he really is the devil?" O'Hara asked homicide detectives, Lobel said.

"Do you believe that your son is the devil?" Police Detective Raleigh Witcher Jr. asked.

"Yes," responded O'Hara, whose shoes, pants and sweater were soaked in his son's blood during police questioning after his arrest, according to investigators.

"He is a devil. Don't tell anybody. That is between me and you. But he is a devil," O'Hara said, according to Lobel.

According to autopsy results, Rory sustained 64 wounds from more than 100 stabs with a folding pocket knife, Lobel said.

The child's rib cage, spine, lungs and heart were penetrated and his trachea was severed during the April 27 attack. His body was found in a rear alley in the 5900 block of Chester Avenue in Kingsessing, about a block from his father's Redfield Street home.

Rory's mother had brought the child from Baltimore to visit his father.

Yesterday, at the conclusion of the preliminary hearing, Judge Seamus P. McCaffery ordered O'Hara to stand trial on charges of murder and weapons possession. O'Hara is scheduled to be arraigned July 24.



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Xev
Skeptic Friend

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2002 :  11:27:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Xev an ICQ Message Send Xev a Private Message
quote:
According to autopsy results, Rory sustained 64 wounds from more than 100 stabs with a folding pocket knife, Lobel said.

The child's rib cage, spine, lungs and heart were penetrated and his trachea was severed during the April 27 attack. His body was found in a rear alley in the 5900 block of Chester Avenue in Kingsessing, about a block from his father's Redfield Street hom


Put the father on a saline drip, coat him with honey, and feed him to motherfucking ants.

Disgusting excuse for a human being.

----------
Every problem has a solution. Only sometimes the solutions involve imaginary numbers and make my head hurt.
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2002 :  11:51:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
quote:

quote:
According to autopsy results, Rory sustained 64 wounds from more than 100 stabs with a folding pocket knife, Lobel said.

The child's rib cage, spine, lungs and heart were penetrated and his trachea was severed during the April 27 attack. His body was found in a rear alley in the 5900 block of Chester Avenue in Kingsessing, about a block from his father's Redfield Street hom


Put the father on a saline drip, coat him with honey, and feed him to motherfucking ants.

Disgusting excuse for a human being.

----------
Every problem has a solution. Only sometimes the solutions involve imaginary numbers and make my head hurt.



Love ya work Xev, couldn't agree more with you. Personally I would like to have 5 minutes alone with the prick. Just one on one and I'd........well, I don't want to break forum rules with excessive profanities!!!

"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin
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James
SFN Regular

USA
754 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2002 :  14:16:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send James a Yahoo! Message Send James a Private Message
quote:

quote:
According to autopsy results, Rory sustained 64 wounds from more than 100 stabs with a folding pocket knife, Lobel said.

The child's rib cage, spine, lungs and heart were penetrated and his trachea was severed during the April 27 attack. His body was found in a rear alley in the 5900 block of Chester Avenue in Kingsessing, about a block from his father's Redfield Street hom


Put the father on a saline drip, coat him with honey, and feed him to motherfucking ants.

Disgusting excuse for a human being.


Why a saline drip? OTT, couldn't have put it better myself.

________________________
Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your life.

Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...

*whine*
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend

USA
147 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2002 :  22:37:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bradley a Private Message
Isn't it strange that xians have this perverted preoccupation with kids' butts? Doesn't surprise me, though.

"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899)
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend

USA
312 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2002 :  18:32:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Piltdown an AOL message  Send Piltdown a Yahoo! Message Send Piltdown a Private Message
Another one:http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020709/ts_nm/crime_pastor_dc_1

quote:
AUSTIN, Texas (Reuters) - Texas police on Tuesday sought a Baptist pastor and his twin brother on charges they used a tree branch to beat an 11-year-old boy nearly to death for misbehaving in a Bible class.
Investigators sought Joshua Thompson, 23, and his twin brother Caleb Thompson for the July 3 incident, which left the Louie Guerrero in intensive care for four days after broken blood vessels caused his kidneys to fail, court records say.





Authority has every reason to fear the skeptic, for authority can rarely survive in the face of doubt.
-Robert Lindner


Edited by - Piltdown on 07/09/2002 18:33:55
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend

USA
312 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2002 :  18:35:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Piltdown an AOL message  Send Piltdown a Yahoo! Message Send Piltdown a Private Message
Come to think of it, we could probably devote a whole forum to "religiously motivated child abuse." Call it "spare the rod" or something.

Authority has every reason to fear the skeptic, for authority can rarely survive in the face of doubt.
-Robert Lindner


Edited by - Piltdown on 07/09/2002 18:36:27
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2002 :  21:13:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Do any of you get sick when you hear how the Bible, even if not taken literally, is of use to us as a sort of moral compass?

Any time I hear that I am reminded of these quotes and think how easy it is to interpret the actual text however the wind is blowing that day?

I would love to see an article on morality and the Bible on SFN. We have some material that covers it but it is spread out. I know it's been addressed before on other websites but I think it's good to get this out everywhere possible.


@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend

USA
141 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2002 :  21:26:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit dimossi's Homepage  Send dimossi an AOL message Send dimossi a Private Message
Here is a good article:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/1/1front94.html

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." [Philip K. Dick, science-fiction author]
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2002 :  21:47:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Wellllll, that article had at least one problem I could see very quickly. Because no one responded to a letter it was assumed that they had no answer. We did not see the letter. It could have been written in such a way that a response was unlikely. maybe not but we have no idea of knowing.

The article has some good points but like so many others of its kind it addresses a very small sliver of the entire issue.


@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2562 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2002 :  14:04:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
This is an article called: "Why Are We Losing Our Children".

http://www.apologeticspress.org/defdocs/rr1993/r&r9301a.htm

In it they say such junk as:
quote:
The Bible is a parent's best friend. The principles of child-rearing sprinkled throughout the Bible are time-tested and true. They are quite literally heaven-sent. And one more thing I know—it is high time we who are parents begin to take parenthood seriously. May we use both the good sense and the Good Book which God has given us as we ‘bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord' (Ephesians 6:4) (Key, 1992a, p. 2).


Oh, boy. Remeber the verses about stoning your child if you THINK he's rebellious? Do they really think that this stuff is needed, or are these just more "cafeteria" xtians who just ignore the "bad" parts of the bible, yet still somehow think that they do (and should) follow the whole thing?





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