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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2002 : 12:53:24
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Snake recently came up with a very good point. He said "One can be a skeptic yet have opinions and likes and dislikes about certain issues. Do you know anyone who is so skeptical or open minded or whatever you want to call it, that he has no favor toward anything?"
We have had accusations of closed mindedness and demands for open mindedness about religions, homosexuality, belief in UFO's, Cryptozoology, and the Paranormal, and smoking in public.
I've gotten two definitions of what open mindedness is from these posts.
1) Open minded people share my opinion about [fill in topic] and close minded people have a different opinion
2) To be open minded you must have no opinion about a given subject at all.
So let's hash out just what it is we mean when we say "open mind."
Is it important to have?
And to what degree?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 15:13:43 [Permalink]
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Skepticism is doubting, questioning and disagreeing. Open-mindedness means being willing to accept new ideas. One cannot really question or doubt everything without being ready to accept new ideas. One cannot really be open-minded without doubting, questioning and disagreeing.
The problem comes in when someone incorrectly thinks that their old idea is a new idea. Theism is not a new idea. Telepathy is not a new idea. A skeptic, I think, would be willing to accept new ideas in these areas, but generally, we see the same old ideas recycled.
Can a skeptic have opinions? Yes, that's probably all we can have if you define opinions as tentative conclusions. Can we be more sure of some opinions than others? Sure. Can skeptics disagree and still be skeptics? Yes.
Can someone who is a skeptic be closed-minded about a particular thing and still be right? Yes. Just because you're right doesn't mean that you've arrived at your conclusions by logical, rational means.
Can someone who is generally a skeptic be unskeptical about certain things? Certainly. Just because you're open-minded about some things doesn't mean that you're open-minded about everything.
How do we tell when someone is closed-minded and un-skeptical? My answer to that always gets me in trouble here.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 09/07/2002 15:30:55 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 20:51:23 [Permalink]
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I've always defined "open minded" as the ability or willingness to judge a proposition on its own merits. It works well as a counterpoint to those who would call atheists "closed minded" because the relative lack of merit of any and all god-concepts can be easily shown.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 23:29:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake recently came up with a very good point. He said "One can be a skeptic yet have opinions and likes and dislikes about certain issues. Do you know anyone who is so skeptical or open minded or whatever you want to call it, that he has no favor toward anything?"
Finally! Some positive (I think) recognition.
Standing up, taking bow.
I think I'll quit while I'm ahead and not answer, for now.
But Gorgo, kind of summed it up pretty good for the most part.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2002 : 07:08:06 [Permalink]
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I always considered that having an open mind means that one approaches new ideas without bias or prejudice.
I don't consider myself totally unbiased. I consciously use ideas gained from previous experiences to judge new ones. I try to limit my bias to the relevant parts and keep myself from genralizing, but keeping an completly open mind would mean not learning from mistakes.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Diggers)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2002 : 12:42:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
I always considered that having an open mind means that one approaches new ideas without bias or prejudice.
I don't consider myself totally unbiased. I consciously use ideas gained from previous experiences to judge new ones. I try to limit my bias to the relevant parts and keep myself from genralizing, but keeping an completly open mind would mean not learning from mistakes.
We all have bias's. I don't think being open minded and having a "skeptics bias" are mutually exclusive. What is required of us skeptics, it seems to me, is that we approach each new claim, and even some old ones with the ability to change our minds if new evidence supports the claim. It has to be pretty solid evidence, of course.
A closed mind is surely a road block to learning anything new. What we think we know to be true is provisional. But, as Carl Sagan once said, "Our minds should not be so open that our brains fall out."
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2002 : 18:47:33 [Permalink]
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OK, this sucks. I'm getting tired of ending threads. I'll take more showers....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 00:51:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'll take more showers....
No, really! You don't smell that bad!
-me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 01:23:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
OK, this sucks. I'm getting tired of ending threads. I'll take more showers....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
I couldn't think of anything to add.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 06:00:03 [Permalink]
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The ancient Greek word skeptikoi, from which we derive the word sceptic, refers to those philosophers who refused to take dogmatic positions, implying open mindedness. Here at sfn it is generally inferred that sceptic means to doubt everything, which to me implies a fair degree of closed mindedness.
each standpoint has it's own merits, eg NDE's, alien abductions, creationism etc demamd closed mindedness. Whereas cryptozoology, religion etc demand a level of open mindedness.
It is very much up to the individual as to which standpoint he/she may take. But,and this is a big but, simply taking an uninformed standpoint for peer adulation is WRONG.
I believe in nothing; only my scepticism kept me from being an atheist.
Edited by - welshdean on 09/10/2002 08:05:57 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 06:36:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
simply taking an uninformed standpoint for peer adulation is WRONG.
That's religion in a nutshell.
I have yet to see a religion that demand a level of open mindedness.
(Unless none is considered a level  )
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 07:48:32 [Permalink]
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That's what I get from theists. Because you don't believe, you're not "open" to believing. Once you believe, you'll believe.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 09/10/2002 07:49:31 |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 08:02:44 [Permalink]
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The only reason I added religion in there is because there is no hard evidence to prove or disprove. (it needs to be said here that I don't believe in god, but i can't disprove god either!)
With cryptozoology, we are still finding new species almost daily, recently a new species of shark was discovered, which indicates to me that we MAY still find some large fish in the ocean depths. I in no way endorse big foot or loch ness monster claims however.
I believe in nothing; only my scepticism kept me from being an atheist.
Edited by - welshdean on 09/10/2002 08:04:58 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 08:14:53 [Permalink]
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Which religion? Define god. There is plenty of evidence to show that Jehovah doesn't exist. There is plenty of evidence to show that any god that I ever heard of doesn't exist. No reason to think any other would be any different. Yes, remain open to the possibility, but I'll remain just as open to the possibility that I'm going to start shitting thousand dollar bills as soon as I'm done typing.
quote:
The only reason I added religion in there is because there is no hard evidence to prove or disprove.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 09:12:32 [Permalink]
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Here's another example. "Open Mind Sciences."
http://science.laws.com/
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2002 : 10:43:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
OK, this sucks. I'm getting tired of ending threads. I'll take more showers....
The Evil Skeptic
I couldn't think of anything to add.
I was going to say more but was waiting for other posts. See (above) what you started Kil. Now you got them going! And BTW, Boron is right too.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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