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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2002 : 04:30:46 [Permalink]
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I don't recall anyone claiming that more than a few thousand U.S. citizens have died in terrorist attacks. Certainly the U.S. is responsble for the death and torture of that many in the last twenty years easily. The U.S. killed thousands in Afghanistan and Panama alone, much less the hundreds of thousands, or more in Iraq.
"Good old Saddam" isn't likely to attack anyone unless attacked. The Iraqi military is much weaker than it was in 1990 when it couldn't even beat Iran without help.
quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
Yeah, and so would the "hundreds of thousands" of Americans killed in those conflicts.
<snip>
And do you really think that good old Sadam will live in peace with the world while he has control of the Iraqi military? Historical precedent indicates otherwise...
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2002 : 05:36:52 [Permalink]
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I like paece, it's a really cool idea.
Seriously, though, bar a few psycho/sociopaths, so do most people. One of the biggest problems is that we just don't know exactly how bad war is. Ask almost any veteran of any conflict about war, and they'll tell you what a thoroughly shitty thing it really is. But that's after the event. If we could find a way to inculcate that feeling before we kick it all off, we'd have a lot more peace in the world.
Anyway, Capitalisms all to blame, isn't it  |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2002 : 11:17:09 [Permalink]
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PEACE will never happen.
There will always be a greedy bastard in power who will convince people to follow him in conquest of more land or power or more followers. People like this have a habit of getting into power because they don't care about lying, while an honest person probably has no place in politics.
War is also hardwired into our brains. Once populations get too high, wars breakout and the population decreases again. Unless we find somewhere else to go and live, our population will not rise much higher. |
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Hobbes
New Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 07:35:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"Good old Saddam" isn't likely to attack anyone unless attacked. The Iraqi military is much weaker than it was in 1990 when it couldn't even beat Iran without help.
Yeah, that's why he attacked Kuwait in 1990; because they attacked him first. Wake up; he's a power-hungry dictator who likes to kill people. He's the guy who said of the US, "Yours is a society who cannot accept 10000 dead in one battle" So quit making him out to be a poor victim. The problem I see with war in Iraq is that after Saddam is gone, some other "Islamic fundamentalist asshole" or "raghead" will take his place, and the whole nasty cycle will start over again. |
And Newton said, "y'= lim h->0 of [f(x+h)-f(x)]/[(x+h)-x], thus, Calculus was born, and Newton saw that it was good. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:14:46 [Permalink]
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Well, yes he attacked Iran and Kuwait with U.S. permission. Those countries are not Israel or the United States, and as I said, Iraq is much weaker than it was then.
Saddam Hussein is not a victim, but if you look at the history of the region, you can see that the U.S. and U.K. have done nothing but make things worse.
quote:
Yeah, that's why he attacked Kuwait in 1990; because they attacked him first. Wake up; he's a power-hungry dictator who likes to kill people. He's the guy who said of the US, "Yours is a society who cannot accept 10000 dead in one battle" So quit making him out to be a poor victim. The problem I see with war in Iraq is that after Saddam is gone, some other "Islamic fundamentalist asshole" or "raghead" will take his place, and the whole nasty cycle will start over again.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 23:05:05 [Permalink]
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For all the people in the world who think how wonderful it would be to have world peace, too bad. It literally is an impossible feat. There are far to many people in the world whose opinions and feelings turn to hatred, and when that happens the best way to deal with their hatred is often to get rid of the things causing it.
This is what will always cause conflict and fighting. It's a natural agressional process and unfortunately the most prominent events are always the ones in which innocents are killed.
It really bothers me when all of the Miss World contestants all answer "World peace," when asked what they want. It's just so cliche. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 12:40:55 [Permalink]
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| I am not sure that most people want peace. Most people do answer that peace is good idea but...we need to stay on top.., we need to get them before they get us.., they started it...In my reality everyone still wants to bash someone else because what they really want is PEACE MY WAY or not at all. Peace means a compromise and that to most people still means losing something. |
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2002 : 01:56:15 [Permalink]
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You want world peace? As i see it we have to follow these easy steps
- Ban all religion.
- Suffer the theists backlash for a few years.
- Future generations wil be able to enjoy the fruits of our labours.
It would probably piss off the religous zealots no end, but, put simply, if we could ban the nonsense, peace would be a whole lot closer. |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Wurrwakh the Ass Monkey
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 02:18:34 [Permalink]
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Violence is an inevitable consequence of being human, however, most of us here (I'm assuming most of us are American) are living far more peaceful lives than our forebears. Given the size and scope of the United States, this is all the more impressive.
The flipside of this is, our wars have the potential of being far more devastating to a far greater number of people. While not every war is "great," every war *we* engage in affects humanity on a global level. We don't have, contrary to what our leaders seem to believe, the luxury of being brutish and short-sighted. We're aware (I hope) that it doesn't matter anymore where the violence begins, because it can be here before we know it. Still, it's only the threat of mass-violence as of now that keeps us from enjoying a peaceful existence. We've been pretty lucky, despite everything we do.
I think the U.S. has been living a very schizophrenic existence since WWII, promoting peace at home while often instigating or bankrolling violence abroad. We are, by and large, a peaceful people. Most of us were raised in opposition to violence. But we've made a business out of advocating violence elsewhere. If any country is positioned for peace, it's the U.S. We have only two countries bordering us, and they haven't the power or motivation to do anything to us. But we can't have TOTAL peace without abandoning this business of brokering violence. For us, it's never religious and only marginally political--it's economic. We sell it, we've sold it--now, it seems, it CAN come back and bite. This is the corner we've backed ourselves into, perhaps unwittingly. Hopefully recent and future events will, at least, convince us to drop our role as international supplier of violence. |
--Wurrwakh, A.M. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 03:13:47 [Permalink]
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| We've promoted violence at home, as well. There are two million of our citizens in prison. Economic violence is something that for some reason we don't call violence, but it happens here. There are all kinds of violence and they're happening here now. But you're right, we make it worse on others. Not just with troops, but with things that seem peaceful and sensible like the IMF. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Wurrwakh the Ass Monkey
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 03:35:22 [Permalink]
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Sure, we have localized violence. We have all kinds of violence. Again, however, I must say that given the size and scope of this nation, it's astounding how little violence we see on a mass scale. Furthermore, the fact that our prisons are overrun indicates that we're *not*, by and large, a people that condone violence. We at least try to punish it--on our own soil. We have a whole other set of values we project onto the rest of the world.
And yeah, not just troops--we supply anything and everything (for a pretty fee) to make war with your neighbor. We can pass the buck and say history put us in this position, but we're the ones that accept it and continue to do it, regardless of the effect it may have on our own well-being somewhere down the road.
We've baked ourselves right into our own damn cake, and now we're going cannibal. Does that make sense? It does at 6am. |
--Wurrwakh, A.M. |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 11:25:26 [Permalink]
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one of the recent things that has pissed me off is back when Isreal was going to invade palestine, and George Jr. was so strongly opposed and was condemning it.
This was after one terrorist attack on the US, and the US went to war, fighting and killing Afghans, while the Israelites had been suicide bombed for the last decade or more. What a hippocrit.
Its not that I'm against peace(far from it), but it seems war is a necessary evil.(for the time being) |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 11:34:25 [Permalink]
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A large percentage of the people in prison are there because of non-violent drug offenses.
We "punish" violence (as though that were a solution) when it exists within certain boundaries and reward it in other areas. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 15:31:45 [Permalink]
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| Hmph. And we all know how well prisons work to show violence is bad. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 19:06:39 [Permalink]
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| Back when Israel was going to invade Palestine? That's all Israel is is an attack on Palestine. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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