|
|
|
darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 01/11/2003 : 15:55:19 [Permalink]
|
Boron 10: quote:
The Jewish people have not yet gotten their messiah. This "prophecy" has
not come true (is there some sort of statute of limitations on these things?), nor is it likely to do so. You seem to think
you are raising a profound point here; if you are, I must be missing it.
First,you have not taken into account the fact that the early church was for the most part Jewish. Second,the NT was written by Jews (with the exception of Luke-Acts).Third there are many Messianic Jews today who believe Jesus is their Messiah. As far as being "profound" I prefer to just be factual. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/11/2003 15:57:30 |
 |
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2003 : 20:09:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
darwin alogos: First,you have not taken into account the fact that the early church was for the most part Jewish.
This is not a fact. It is, in fact, the subject of much debate in the Religion Forum. Do you have any references other than the bible that make this claim? If so, we can continue this discussion in a new thread. quote:
Second,the NT was written by Jews (with the exception of Luke-Acts).
See my above comment. quote:
Third there are many Messianic Jews today who believe Jesus is their Messiah.
Wouldn't that make them Christians? quote:
As far as being "profound" I prefer to just be factual.
Good idea. |
|
|
|
darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 09:46:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Do you have any references other than the bible that make this claim? If so, we can continue this discussion in a new thread.
Hows thisBoron,WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT WRITEN BY ORTHODOX JEWS? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 12:21:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
quote:
Do you have any references other than the bible that make this claim? If so, we can continue this discussion in a new thread.
Hows thisBoron,WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT WRITEN BY ORTHODOX JEWS?
Really stupid. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 07:24:09 [Permalink]
|
CA: quote:
Hows thisBoron,WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT WRITEN BY ORTHODOX JEWS?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really stupid.
I'll bet your so smart you didn't even get it that I was pointing to another "thread"in response to "If so, we can continue this discussion in a new thread. " Nice comeback though RD,CA |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 07:58:52 [Permalink]
|
I quote:quote:
"The meek shall inherit the Earth."
|
|
|
|
jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 09:00:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
The Jews did't see the whole chapter as referring to the Messiah but only these verses:Micah 2.13 (see Gen 18.4,5; Midr on Prov 6)
Micah 5.2 (targ; Pirqe d. R. Eliez c.3; et.al.)
Micah 5.3 (talmud--Yoma 10a; Sanh 98b) .Therefore, tour allusions to the Assyrian kingdom . are irrelevant.http://www.israelshope.com/messiah.html (edited for http:)
This is rediculous and breaks all rules of reading. If 5:2 and 5:3 are talking about this savior then surely 5:4 is too. And if 5:4 is then 5:5 is as well. If not then 5:4 & 5:5 are total nonsense talking about a he and a man that is never identified.
The only people who don't see 5:4 & 5:5 as referring to the same person are those who have to have it fit their idea that it is a prophesy of a messiah and since no messiah rescued Israel from the Assyrians then both Jews and Xians will be forced to break the text irrationally somewhere between 5:2 & 5:5 to keep the Bible true.
Of course anyone without such a need can read the verses can easily see that they all apply to the same "him/he/man". |
|
|
|
jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 09:03:10 [Permalink]
|
What in the world does your link have to do with the verses in question? It doens't even mention the book of Micah. Maybe you can enlighten me here.
The logic presented on that page is quite simply not logical. Let's see it says we should believe in the Bible because the Bible says we should.  |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 10:13:16 [Permalink]
|
| I don't get it? Is Psalm 37:11 another example of false prophesy? Obviously the meek inherit only the dirt and not the Earth. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 11:43:32 [Permalink]
|
As I read BoronX's introduction to this thread, it was meant to discuss any and all prophecies, not just false prophecies.
I don't get your discussion of Isaiah 11 (and, inferentially, Psalms 36:11). Is your decidedly terse, somewhat cynical comment designed to suggest that the prophecyquote:
The meek shall inherit the Earth.
is a false one?
Do you suggest, perhaps, that only the brutish and boorish shall inherit the Earth--and that they will do that through the expedient of killing the meek?
Hmmmmm. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 13:43:18 [Permalink]
|
I'm suggesting that survival belongs to the fittest.
Also that the inherit the Eath crap comes straight from the Roman Empire. Meekness is not a virtue, it is a fault in the human character. This sort of glorification of meekness lead to the enslavement of Europe under serfdom.
The meek inherit only suffering. And when did "brutish and boorish" become the opposite of meek? Bold and courageous are the opposite of meek. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 15:14:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The meek inherit only suffering. And when did "brutish and boorish" become the opposite of meek? Bold and courageous are the opposite of meek.
Or those who lead which is the same thing perhaps. But even if the meek did inherit the Earth they would retain ownership for about 5 minutes.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 19:04:10 [Permalink]
|
As for it being a false "prophecy" it's around 2000 years now since the Jesus character quoted it and I've no idea how many hundreds of years BCE the Psalms were written. More than a few.
So yeah, it's a false prophesy. The meek never inherited the Earth and the statute of limitations is long since up. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2003 : 20:31:55 [Permalink]
|
To jmcginnOops(DA) Try this: quote:
Commentaries from ancient Jewish Rabbis who lived righteous lives point to and identify The Man: the Messiah of Israel.
Although not Scripture, the writings of various Targums and the Sanhedrin confirm the identity of the Messiah. Both
appearances of Messiah are clearly identified by ancient rabbinical writings.
God called one man, the man Abraham, to bring forth a nation. And He called that nation, Israel, to bring forth The Man:
the Messiah!
Micah 5:2
"Out of thee, Bethlehem, shall Messiah go forth before me, to exercise dominion over Israel. Whose name has been
spoken from of old, from the day of eternity." [Targum Jonathan]
"Out of thee, Bethlehem, shall come forth the MESSIAH, the son of David." [R. Jarchi] [See also "Son of David]
http://www.realmiracles.com/rabbiwrit14.htm Sorry about that.My point is still the same:If the Jewish scholars of the Tanach thought these particular verses refered to the Messiah before Jesus then they still have evidential value for the NT claim that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.As far as the remaining portion of the chapter I would suggest you refer to some hermenutical literure.My own take on it would be that portion is still to be fufilled (ref.Luke 4:16-22 here Jesus stops at Isa.61:2a the remainder of the passage is to be fulfilled at his second coming ref.Rev.19:11-21).Remember in interpreting any ancient document it is the forms of thought of that day that matter not our 21st century mindset.(edited to correct mistaken reference This is the one:http://hopeofisrael.net/rabsproph.htm). (edited for reference:From Text to Action by Paul Rico, et al
Hermeneutics: Interpretation Theory in Schleiermacher, Dilthey, Heidegger, and Gadamer by Richard E. Palmer
Explore similar items
Editorial Reviews
Book Description
A collection of essays, in translation, by Ricoeur, a leading proponent of the hermeneutical method in philosophy. Essays examine the
history and central themes of hermeneutics, Ricoeur's position in a systematic theory of language and interpretation and implications of the
theory into the domains of sociology and psychoanalysis. )
 |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/14/2003 00:30:40 |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
