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Ultramundane
New Member
16 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2003 : 19:18:52
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Quantum Mechanics might replace God but how could a random fluctuation of energy deliver a universe with everything just right to produce human consciousness?
Within nature are amazing mathematical laws - but why are they of the form they are?
Why these forces, this maths?
It is argued by some that there has to be a deeper theory of how the fundamental or constant parameters of the universe, came to be so finely tuned.
Why do constants have the values that they do? Why is the universe the particular way it is?
A theory of 'everything' has yet to be discovered. Such a theory argues that there is only '1' typical universe. In such a universe;
1. Everything would flow logically from explicable mathematical principles. The Cosmological Constant, (a number at the heart of the universe) however is a stumbling block in the realization of this theory, which has stumped hardcore theorists whom fear it will never be explained.
2. Another method used to explain the astronomical odds against this universe being just right was that it wasn't the only universe, but one of trillions. In a multiverse, every possible universe exists, so the fact that '1' of them turns out to be 'just right', isn't so remarkable. But this 'designer free universe' put up by physics is pure supposition.
Should we accept this prodigal assumption or accept God as the designer?
Could God have fixed these constants?
Where does the quantum vacuum come from, for example?
Are the laws of nature themselves sufficiently self contained, sufficiently easy to accept as brute force or do they have features in them which point beyond themselves? We have more to learn than simply state, 'that's the way it happens to be'.
Perhaps the rational order & beauty of the universe is simply an expression of a divine mind?
An atheist may say that there is no reason as to why such laws exist. - the doctrine of cosmic absurdity - but this is an inconsistency as science is supposed to give logical & rational answers to things, and if you trace that down to the laws of nature and say 'well there's no reason for those, we just have to accept them', then we are doing a back-flip at the final stage.
We live in a Universe which is rational & logical in every respect, but underpinning it is absurdity! Surely it ought to be rational all the way down?
A parallel universe is not a solution - why would all these possible universes exist anyway? An even deeper mystery, which would require an explanation…
Proposing an infinite number of universes has shocking consequences - it means inescapably, that our physics is just one chance set of laws in one chance universe. The only reason that scientists are studying it was because by chance, it created them.
So instead of allowing God to have defined our universe, scientists are saying that the universe is defined by our presence in it.
The implications of this are profound.
According to a physicist at Cambridge University (sorry, I can't recall his name), as soon as we start saying that the universe depends on 'US' being there, we have retreated & we can never have a theory that explains everything but only the universe in which we inhabit. He also argues that, "If you ask at a deep level, why is the universe the way it is, we are no where near answering that question in science - we are no closer now than the ancient Greeks were…"
Your thoughts with regards to the above would be appreciated.
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Edited by - Ultramundane on 03/07/2003 19:19:41
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 19:56:54 [Permalink]
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What makes you think this universe is just right? or the only one that would produce similar outcomes? or that the intelligence you find is the only intelligence in the universe? Life always finds a way to slip into the most narrow of niches.
You need to prove your assumptions before you make such outrageous conclusions
BTW, how come all you jebus freaks that are now witnessing on the skeptics pages never complete your personal profiles? What are you hiding? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 20:17:14 [Permalink]
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Could God have fixed these constants?
No, he couldn't. For the simple reason that God is a fictional character. He exists only within the pages of a book. You might as well have asked if Harry Potter could have fixed these constants.
Talk about a doctrine of cosmic absurdity!!! "A God did it" is a non-answer you would expect from someone from a primitive society. These days we try to find actual answers to life's questions. Please check your superstitions at the door.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 20:17:47 [Permalink]
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Two thoughts:quote:
But this 'designer free universe' put up by physics is pure supposition.
So is, as far as I can tell, God. There is no need for either hypothesis. Because...quote:
An atheist may say that there is no reason as to why such laws exist. - the doctrine of cosmic absurdity - but this is an inconsistency as science is supposed to give logical & rational answers to things, and if you trace that down to the laws of nature and say 'well there's no reason for those, we just have to accept them', then we are doing a back-flip at the final stage.
This just isn't the case.
"Science" knows its limits. There is no way we can know what happened before the Big Bang, and there is no way we can contact or measure other universes (which may or may not exist). The proper scientific answer is not "there's no reason for those," it is "we don't know, and we probably won't ever know."
The deep "whys" behind the universe aren't questions which science can answer - we can't observe any other universes, so we can't compare ours to anything different to even begin to create theories about why thus-and-such a constant has this-or-that value, we just know that that's what it is.
Asking "science" to do more than explain what is is like asking your financial planner to do your root canal.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 21:03:19 [Permalink]
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Am I missing something here?
When did the Xians chuck out old Yahweh, old Godthefather, and trade him in for a God of physics, string theory, and quantum mechanics? That's all we hear about at SFN these days. You remember God don't you? His sandals kicked up dust when he walked around Heaven and that was what made clouds. He made a solid sky and hung the stars from it, over a flat Earth. You know, the stars that will fall to Earth when the four horsemen of the Apocalypse ride through the sky on their horses. The God who makes rain fall through little windows cut in the sky. That God, yeah, whatever happened to him?
Did Copernicus and Galileo kill him? Or have 21st century Xians abandoned him because he was too ridiculous. And now they hope to pass off this new Space God because they can't understand how science works? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 01:54:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
"Science" knows its limits. There is no way we can know what happened before the Big Bang, and there is no way we can contact or measure other universes (which may or may not exist). The proper scientific answer is not "there's no reason for those," it is "we don't know, and we probably won't ever know."
I would drop the probably and say might (not ever know) but other than that, I suggest becoming a Buddhist. We don't know AND don't care.
No god to worry about, it's perfect! |
| Edited by - Snake on 03/08/2003 01:58:15 |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 02:26:37 [Permalink]
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ok Snake no mind and no worry.....perfect......
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If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Ultramundane
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 05:17:27 [Permalink]
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Firstly Mr. Chainsaw...calm down. Why do you infer from my post that I am a 'Jesus Freak'...your assumption is illogical & ridiculous. How do you know if I even accept the historicity of the Jesus of the Gospels?
Furthermore, so what if I haven't filled in my personal profile? What relevance does it have to my thread? It is not compulsary to do so & so I chose not to...it appears however that by not doing so I have caused you great pain...get over it.
I take your points on board Dave W, appreciated.
'Space God' Slater? There are many unanswered questions with regards to the universe. Just because I posed some questions it doesn't imply that I don't know how science works...don't be so arrogant. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 08:51:23 [Permalink]
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Douglas Adams
Sorry. Couldn't resist it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 09:10:19 [Permalink]
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Ultra, you read much more emotion into my comment than what I put into it. I am merely observing a pattern. Nothing more. So if the pattern fits, feel free to wear it.
BTW, you dodged my questions. I have another question to add to my list. I await you answers.
When you find an animal living in a very small, narrow and possible hostile niche, do you say that the environment was made especially for that animal and any slight change would destroy it or could you concede that maybe that animal found and successfully adapted to that niche? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 10:12:22 [Permalink]
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Space God' Slater? There are many unanswered questions with regards to the universe. Just because I posed some questions it doesn't imply that I don't know how science works...don't be so arrogant.
Talk about arrogance! You tell us that the questions are unanswered and the answer in the same breath. And what's you answer? A primitive superstition that you want us to drop all human knowledge to accept merely on your say so. That's arrogance. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 12:41:01 [Permalink]
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Ultramundane......how fitting.
So it's more reasonable to assume that a sky fairy, of which there is absolutely no proof, did a bunch of math and set up the universe to create humans, than it is to assume that in the infinity of time and (for lack of a better word describing what may be "outside" our universe) space our univere randomly burst into existence?
I don't think so. Infinity is a long time in which a lot of stuff could happen. (dripping with irony here, do you get it?)
My question to you.....what created this god you speak of? How'd its "universe" come into being? |
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 12:49:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
all you jebus freaks
quote:
Ultramundane......how fitting.
Come on, guys, this stuff isn't necessary. Let's at least try to keep it civil. |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 13:10:44 [Permalink]
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Okay, Tokyodreamer, I agree, I will be nicer in the future. It's just so much a part of my vocabulary that I forget sometimes.
And sorry if I offended any of you "JESUS" freaks out there. Come on, have a beer on me and we can shake hands. We're all higher evolved beings now so we can get along just fine. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 13:50:01 [Permalink]
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Tokyo, I'm not going to fight with you.
I thought it was a rather fitting user name to the same tired old saw. So I commented.
Perhaps Ultra's responses will change my opinion. |
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 17:28:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badger
Tokyo, I'm not going to fight with you.
I thought it was a rather fitting user name to the same tired old saw. So I commented.
Perhaps Ultra's responses will change my opinion.
Aw shucks! I was hoping for pistols at dawn.  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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