|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2003 : 01:49:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spock
On the other hand, there are those who believe that ANYTHING that can be traced in any way to religious origins must be dismissed wholesale.
Whoops, Spock, forgot that you do Yoga, sorry.
But Orpheus, that as Spock mentions above, is what I was taught many years ago about Yoga (being a Yogi is religious, one chooses paths to god. and the physical one is just one of those paths) and it leaves a 'bad taste' with me because of that.
If one is going to exersize, gees....just do it but don't call it Yoga.
|
 |
|
|
Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 03:14:27 [Permalink]
|
Yeah, I see your point. The semantics of it does suggest a sort of religious conflation. It's just that no other words have been forthcoming which adequately describe the excercises Yoga contains.
I agree with Spock 100%. It is unfortunate that some Skeptics fall prey to the genetic falacy. It's as though they have a filter through which they see that says: "If anything reminds you of religion, immediately ignore it or condemn it or both". That's not a very skeptical filter. A better one would be "whoa..relax, take a deep breath and look at the issue/evidence at hand".
Skeptics often get egg on the face (needlessly) if they too quickly toss out fantastic claims which are later verified. |
Find your own damned answers! |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 10:19:52 [Permalink]
|
On the other hand, there are those who believe that ANYTHING that can be traced in any way to religious origins must be dismissed wholesale. This is what we call the genetic fallacy.
Actually what it is is a "Strawman" you are pulling....shame on you. |
|
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 16:31:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
That's so odd.
Yoga is the one thing I would never do because it is directly associated with a religion, and one that has gods too.
Geez, I hope this doesn't apply to the Kama Sutra! My "significant other" would be devastated!
|
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 03/15/2003 10:45:34 |
|
|
|
Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 18:43:45 [Permalink]
|
The genetic fallacy, the way I understand it, involves judging (usually in the sense of dismissing) the merit of an idea soley in terms of where it came from. It is closely related to other fallacies of relevance, and I'm sure, is known by other names. I often hear it used as a conversation stopper, such as "that is a very male/Western/rationalistic way of seeing things." (Note in this example that the genetic fallacy is used in cojunction with an implied ad hominem).
I did not intend to employ a straw man (i.e., misrepresenting one's opponents view at its most extreme or absurd formulation, in order to dispense of it more easily, which, indeed is playing dirty). I did not mean to imply that anyone involved in this discussion would reject an idea or practice simply because of possible religious origins, despite independently verifiable evidence of its merit (even, or especially when said evidence contradicts the religious explanation of said merits).
I do, however, believe that there are people with that general attitude (hell, I've been like that myself on many occaisions). I simply meant to make the point that "believers" haven't quite cornered the market on close-mindedness. (And no, I'm not calling anyone here close-mined). I'm no fan of religion, but that doesn't mean (as counterintuitive as it might seem) that occaisionally religion can not get something right, if, perhaps, only by accident. In the case of yoga and certain other practices (I'm sure it must be a very short list), I think that one could easily throw the baby out with the bath water--I almost did for the reasons stated above, and almost missed out on something that has helped me quite a bit.
BTW, even though I do yoga, I tend to agree that meditation, as conventionally understood, is a waste of time, even though certain approaches may be beneficial under certain circumstances (but for purely scientific reasons other than what the "faithful" might tell us). Personally, my attention span is much to short to even try. |
"The amount of noise which anyone can bear stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity." --Schopenhauer |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 20:53:13 [Permalink]
|
| While were on the subject, would anyone be interested in a slightly used mantra? Cheap? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 00:54:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spock
I do, however, believe that there are people with that general attitude (hell, I've been like that myself on many occaisions). I simply meant to make the point that "believers" haven't quite cornered the market on close-mindedness. (And no, I'm not calling anyone here close-mined). I'm no fan of religion, but that doesn't mean (as counterintuitive as it might seem) that occaisionally religion can not get something right, if, perhaps, only by accident. In the case of yoga and certain other practices (I'm sure it must be a very short list),
I think that one could easily throw the baby out with the bath water
Does that mean it (Yoga) has in the past few year after thousands, has evolved into something it was not intended to be?
I guess it like so many other things have been taken over by pop or modern culture and melted into the plastic culture of One World.
Ok, so maybe we can't fight 'City Hall'! |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 01:07:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
That's so odd.
Yoga is the one thing I would never do because it is directly associated with a religion, and one that has gods too.
Geez, I hope this doesn't apply to the Kama Sutra! My "signifcant other" would be devastated!
"In short, an intelligent and prudent person, attending to Dharma and Artha, and attending to Kama also, without becoming the slave of his passions, obtains success in everything that he may undertake."
Go for it Fristoe. 
|
|
|
|
Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 03:02:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spock
BTW, even though I do yoga, I tend to agree that meditation, as conventionally understood, is a waste of time, even though certain approaches may be beneficial under certain circumstances (but for purely scientific reasons other than what the "faithful" might tell us). Personally, my attention span is much to short to even try.
I agree. I think meditation is often hailed as a sort of a "cure-all" for emotional distress, when it is really just a deep form of relaxation. If you want to ameliorate some sort of emotional problem, the worst advice people tend to give is something like "just relax, it will be okay.."!!
Meditation just distracts you from the problem. More conscious reflection is needed, in my humble opinion, for emotional problems to be solved. |
Find your own damned answers! |
|
|
|
Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 05:16:25 [Permalink]
|
I suppose what may be at issue here is the pragmatic vs. purist approach to life's grayer areas. The older I get, the more pragmatic I become.
I can, for instance, see how another atheist might be so turned off by striking a prayer pose or exhaling a deep "OM" that they would never give yoga a second thought. I can understand how such a person is letting his principles be his guide.
In the case of the prayer pose, I understand it as simply pressing my palms together to engage muscles in certain ways necessary to fully realize certain asanas--the fact that the word "prayer" has been attached to this action is simply a convention, the religious associations of which I choose to ignore. The "OM" thing does strike me as a bit silly, but, if done properly, it does set off energizing (though completely physiological) vibrations from the belly to the head, which is a good way to begin and end a practice. Again, I could worry about having been co-opted by a mystical mindset for doing this, but I know my own mind too well and am confident enough in my own non-beliefs to let this happen. Thus, I do not feel badly about just letting it slide and getting on with the practice. (Sometimes, you just have to say "fuck it" and get on with things).
If this disqualifies me as a skeptic or atheist, so be it; I'm not married to any labels anyway. Just keep in mind that many noted skeptics have bought into sillier notions (i.e., Christianity) with fewer disclaimers. While I'm aware of the pitfalls of extreme pragmatism, which can devolve into an "anything goes" philosophy, I still prefer it to extreme purism, which strikes me as too stubborn and rigid to be of much good. I also consider this an issue about which reasonable (and amply skeptical) people can disagree. |
"The amount of noise which anyone can bear stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity." --Schopenhauer |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 09:53:17 [Permalink]
|
The genetic fallacy, the way I understand it, involves judging (usually in the sense of dismissing) the merit of an idea soley in terms of where it came from.
And that is the very straw-man I was talking about.
I made no mention of chanting and meditations connections to religion or to the state of it's practicioners. I delt specifically with the acts themselves. |
|
|
|
tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 10:15:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spock
BTW, even though I do yoga, I tend to agree that meditation, as conventionally understood, is a waste of time, even though certain approaches may be beneficial under certain circumstances (but for purely scientific reasons other than what the "faithful" might tell us). Personally, my attention span is much to short to even try.
I agree. I think meditation is often hailed as a sort of a "cure-all" for emotional distress, when it is really just a deep form of relaxation. If you want to ameliorate some sort of emotional problem, the worst advice people tend to give is something like "just relax, it will be okay.."!!
Meditation just distracts you from the problem. More conscious reflection is needed, in my humble opinion, for emotional problems to be solved.
Meditation or other relaxation techniques can be very effective at
reducing the immediate emotional 'storm' that impedes conscious
reflection. "Just relax, then you can think it through"
-- Henry |
- TW
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 17:09:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Don't forget, folks, that meditation may be harmful to your health.
Maybe it should come with a warning label from the Surgeon General? |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
