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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2003 : 03:26:36
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Many posts on this forum seems to revolve around quite sophisticated issues of ID, ontological defences of god's existence and the problem of evil. I would like to suggest a much simpler challenge to theists.
If we give you the assumption that an omnipotent, omniscient creator exists, why is it that it does not make its presence clearly known? It seems as though god became agoraphobic after the old testament, when he was appearing to almost everybody on a daily basis. What would such a powerful creature have to gain from now only talking in dreams, or "visions" or other vague forms of communication? The burning bush sure was not vague!
If it is the argument that god does talk to the faithful, how come he doesn't reveal something that person could not possibly know, like the presence of yet undiscovered radio sources in the universe etc.?? Of course, if god existed, there's no real reason it should do these things, but come on, it would not be a big stretch for such a powerful being, and it would certainly clear up a great deal of confusion (and concomittant violence) down here on earth!
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Find your own damned answers! |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2003 : 04:07:33 [Permalink]
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If a burning bush addressed you, would you listen? Would you believe it was god after you found no receiver/transmitter nearby?
I would of course suspect some sort of trick, but if none were likely, I would more likely doubt my own sanity than believe that I was communicating with the big G.
Would you believe somebody who claimed to have spoken to God through a burning bush (or some other medium)? Would it be even possible for that person to convince you without taking you to the bush and having it talk to you? |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 05:37:44 [Permalink]
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| I would be more prone to accepting that there seems to be talking burning bushes in the world. It would not however be proof of a God, just a talking burning bush. |
Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 09:57:12 [Permalink]
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Frankly I think that the "burning bushes" are still here. These "miracles" are still happening.
Yesterday and today you couldn't turn on the radio without hearing about the Elizabeth Smart case in Utah. Every few months the news fills with stories about some religious nut and the terrible crimes they commit. I used to think that these mentally ill people were patterning themselves after people they admired in the bible. Delusions of grandeur. But now I'm beginning to think that this might not be so. We hear their stories "sectionalized" in the news, the crimes they committed/their insanity. But if we hear their stories from their own point of view we would get them all of a piece.
When you check out the biographies of the men in the bible who were in contact with god we get the same thing. Abraham, Elijah, Moses, John, and even Jesus, you get their claims that impossible things are happening, you get the massive disruption they cause in other peoples lives, and you get the crimes they committed. Exactly what we hear from today's criminals.
The only difference in the bible stories and the crime news stories is the audience. Today's audience is more enlightened, we understand that there is such a thing as mental illness. Whatever it is that is affecting these peoples minds today has exactly the same symptoms as the bible characters had. It wouldn't be too big a stretch to assume that they share the same illness.
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 03:13:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
If a burning bush addressed you, would you listen? Would you believe it was god after you found no receiver/transmitter nearby?
I would of course suspect some sort of trick, but if none were likely, I would more likely doubt my own sanity than believe that I was communicating with the big G.
Would you believe somebody who claimed to have spoken to God through a burning bush (or some other medium)? Would it be even possible for that person to convince you without taking you to the bush and having it talk to you?
Excellent point! In fact you can go further than this. Let's imagine you discount (somehow) that no tricks are being played, and that it is not a new species or an intelligent alien race speaking to you. AND you get independent confirmation that it's not all "in your head". Maybe this can then qualify as "god". Let's imagine that this being demonstrates insights into the structure of reality which can only be the mark of a creator, and can predict the future with 100% accuracy. Why should you listen to it? Why should you obey it? Why should you take its moral opinions seriously? Why should you take its opinions of you seriously?
There are no good reasons other than that it is WAY more powerful than you. So ultimately, belief in god, as delineated by religions, is nothing more than fear of a powerful being. Not terribly noble, is it? 
The fact is of course, that none of this has yet happened. Barring cosmic stage fright, it doesn't seem likely either. So all we have to go on are the claims made by people who may very well be quite mistaken (as humans often are), or quite insane (as humans often are). |
Find your own damned answers! |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2003 : 15:19:46 [Permalink]
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| We may soon be seeing burning Bush effigies! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2003 : 15:26:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
Many posts on this forum seems to revolve around quite sophisticated issues of ID, ontological defences of god's existence and the problem of evil. I would like to suggest a much simpler challenge to theists.
If we give you the assumption that an omnipotent, omniscient creator exists, why is it that it does not make its presence clearly known? It seems as though god became agoraphobic after the old testament, when he was appearing to almost everybody on a daily basis. What would such a powerful creature have to gain from now only talking in dreams, or "visions" or other vague forms of communication? The burning bush sure was not vague!
If it is the argument that god does talk to the faithful, how come he doesn't reveal something that person could not possibly know, like the presence of yet undiscovered radio sources in the universe etc.?? Of course, if god existed, there's no real reason it should do these things, but come on, it would not be a big stretch for such a powerful being, and it would certainly clear up a great deal of confusion (and concomittant violence) down here on earth!
He sent His son to earth as the son of a poor carpenter, born in a small village in a stable. Perhaps this is a clue about His true nature. He is not boistrous and boastful like we tend to be. Even the burning bush event was witnessed only by Moses. You'll recall he displayed his power in the plaques of Egypt and on Mt. Sinai when He gave the ten commandments. It didn't bring instant love and obedience from the observers as you can read in Exodus. They were frightened out of their wits! God does display His awesome power through His creation everyday, only we are blinded by our doubts and our pride. We seek "extraterrestrial signs" and deny that God even exists. We cry out for some sign in the heavens, He tells us the only sign you'll get is the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Those that let God influence them, found tremendous assurance of God's reality..."he gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud". |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2003 : 06:15:16 [Permalink]
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To Doomar
It seems, judging from your reply that you pretty much view the Bible as a veridical account of what really happened way back when. Consequently, I'm not sure if what I'm about to say will find much resonance within you.
1. The Bible is not necessarily a veridical historical record. This has been shown by historians quite a number of times. BUT, before getting into an argument about historical facts..
2. If god did all these things you claim he did, how come he is not doing them now? I would hardly call the giving of tablets of law on Mt Siniae "not impressive". Also,
3. if god created everything, knows everything and loves us so much, how come he makes his presence so difficult to verify? Our most gifted scientists have not found one scrap of evidence for his existence..how come? If your answer is that he his modest, or does not want to boast, you have clearly not read the old testament. The god of the bible tends to be quite boastful of how the heathens are going to suffer, burn and generally be destroyed. God himself calls himself a "jealous" and "wrathfull" god in the old testament.
Even if we give you the assumption that god is modest, how come? to what end? And of course, this leaves the whole problem of evil unadressed, but that lies outside the present scope of this argument.
Sorry buddy, but your explanation really just seems like religious dogma left unexamined... |
Find your own damned answers! |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2003 : 12:34:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar said: God does display His awesome power through His creation everyday, only we are blinded by our doubts and our pride. We seek "extraterrestrial signs" and deny that God even exists.
Faith is not a rational tool for establishing truth. Faith is a firm belief in an assertion without proof. Even in spite of evidence to the contrary. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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gal2v20
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2003 : 14:44:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Frankly I think that the "burning bushes" are still here. These "miracles" are still happening.
Yesterday and today you couldn't turn on the radio without hearing about the Elizabeth Smart case in Utah. Every few months the news fills with stories about some religious nut and the terrible crimes they commit. I used to think that these mentally ill people were patterning themselves after people they admired in the bible. Delusions of grandeur. But now I'm beginning to think that this might not be so. We hear their stories "sectionalized" in the news, the crimes they committed/their insanity. But if we hear their stories from their own point of view we would get them all of a piece.
When you check out the biographies of the men in the bible who were in contact with god we get the same thing. Abraham, Elijah, Moses, John, and even Jesus, you get their claims that impossible things are happening, you get the massive disruption they cause in other peoples lives, and you get the crimes they committed. Exactly what we hear from today's criminals.
The only difference in the bible stories and the crime news stories is the audience. Today's audience is more enlightened, we understand that there is such a thing as mental illness. Whatever it is that is affecting these peoples minds today has exactly the same symptoms as the bible characters had. It wouldn't be too big a stretch to assume that they share the same illness.
acually I am afraid u r misstaking name 1 crime tht jesus commitedall he did was bring healing to a sick world,other historical books tell us of the man called jesus and the miricles he did from the sounds of it u are not looking for the truth cause if u want to find the truth u need to look deeper than wht u have,u,ll find tht the old testament does in fact show true in hitory if u have any questions u can e-mail me at sunsetisland21@aol.com, in all my research i have found only truth in the bible nothing has been disprooved in it but however it has been prooved in areas,believe it or not 1 day every 1 will know the truth but i doubt tht every1 will enjoy the truth they will find on tht day,all tht i am out for is the truth and if u can prove to me beyond resonable doubt than i will believe other wise but if u see the truth then i ask tht u 4 ur own good and peace, believe it
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Robert Epperson |
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gal2v20
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2003 : 15:00:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
To Doomar
It seems, judging from your reply that you pretty much view the Bible as a veridical account of what really happened way back when. Consequently, I'm not sure if what I'm about to say will find much resonance within you.
1. The Bible is not necessarily a veridical historical record. This has been shown by historians quite a number of times. BUT, before getting into an argument about historical facts..
2. If god did all these things you claim he did, how come he is not doing them now? I would hardly call the giving of tablets of law on Mt Siniae "not impressive". Also,
3. if god created everything, knows everything and loves us so much, how come he makes his presence so difficult to verify? Our most gifted scientists have not found one scrap of evidence for his existence..how come? If your answer is that he his modest, or does not want to boast, you have clearly not read the old testament. The god of the bible tends to be quite boastful of how the heathens are going to suffer, burn and generally be destroyed. God himself calls himself a "jealous" and "wrathfull" god in the old testament.
Even if we give you the assumption that god is modest, how come? to what end? And of course, this leaves the whole problem of evil unadressed, but that lies outside the present scope of this argument.
Sorry buddy, but your explanation really just seems like religious dogma left unexamined...
how do u say (since u obviuosly know the discoveries of science)tht we got here on earth remember in the science world there has to be a way because they do know that the earth was not always here if u know how it was tht we are now here then please do share it with me my e-mail is sunsetisland21@aol.com please write me and let me know, |
Robert Epperson |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2003 : 15:39:11 [Permalink]
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acually I am afraid u r misstaking name 1 crime tht jesus commited
This site is read all over the world Robert so we try to write in actual English and not computer-ese.
Jesus crimes? Well at the Money Changer incident there was assault with a weapon, destruction of public and private property and inciting a riot.
other historical books tell us of the man called jesus and the miricles he did from the sounds of it u are not looking for the truth cause if u want to find the truth u need to look deeper than wht u have,
And if you are looking for the facts…and I doubt that you are…you will find that there are no historical records of Jesus at all. You will also find that the scatter shot stories that comprise Jesus "life" were around a long time before the Jesus crowd stole them.
if u can prove to me beyond resonable doubt than i will believe other wise but if u see the truth then i ask tht u 4 ur own good and peace, believe it
Thanks, I can do without that class of mindless peace. If you wish to discuss the difference between fact and mythology then that's what this forum is for.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2003 : 17:03:33 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the translation and breakdown, Slater. It made my eyeballs hurt to try and read paragraph-less, apparent gibberish.
Gal2v20, I don't feel that I have anything to prove or disprove. After all, it's not possible to disprove a negitive, nor is it possible to prove the supernatural. And it's tried every day by channeling crooks, ghost busting dreamers, young earth Christians and rabid preachers of all sects. And so forth.
As a skeptic, I must ask for evidence of the existance of any of it. Failing evidence, I must conclude that the 'burning bush' was probably either an hallucination (remember, this took place in the lands of hashish and opium), or, more likely, a fantastic and heroic tale to spice up the main story.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2003 : 06:15:43 [Permalink]
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To begin with, this has been a terrible post to try to read. Please, Robert, try to make your posts just a bit more coherent if you choose to post again.
quote:
in all my research i have found only truth in the bible nothing has been disprooved in it but however it has been prooved in areas
I must take up where f left off. I can't disprove the Mother Goose stories. But, this doesn't make those tales historical truths. I can no more prove the non-existence of Sponge Bob, but at least we have written contemporary accounts of Sponge Bob and his friends.
Robert, if you want me to believe in the existence of your god in triplicate, you have to present the evidence. And, I eagerly await that evidence.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2003 : 08:09:59 [Permalink]
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Well, well...
[leans back for another excursion into the mind of a believer]
...well Robert, show me the light, give me a reason to belive,
show me the errors of my ways... |
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