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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2003 : 17:30:15
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This is a digression from the "Can one truly say they are an Atheist?" thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I, for one, subscribe to the thought that life-forms are hierchical: My cells are alive; my arm is alive; I am alive; the Local Ecology is alive; the Greater Ecology is alive; the Earth is alive; the Solar System is alive; the Milky Way is alive; the Universe is alive.
Hmmm...a little bit of a stretch of the definition of life, but I will give you that. quote:
And by alive I also mean "self-aware", just as are you and I.
Whoa! I cannot, in good conscience, let this go uncontested. I am eagerly awaiting your evidence. quote:
BTW: I also subscribe to the widespread belief that while the BODY may die, the "intelligence"/"Spirit" moves on to a newly-conceived body.
I am, again, eagerly awaiting your evidence. quote:
But, then, that subject would probably be a hijack of this thread. (Or: would it? Hmmm.)
I am starting a new thread for this one.
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 20:32:49 [Permalink]
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| It seems that he either has a different definition for life, or is just caught up in mumbo jumbo. Also, I am always curious how the mind survives the brain, since the mind IS the brain. If there is any doubt, talk to a stroke victem, or someone who has Altziemers. The abhorrant practice of lobotomy was very effective because by destorying parts of the brain, you "destroyed" parts of the mind, since they are one and the same. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 20:44:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I also subscribe to the widespread belief that while the BODY may die, the "intelligence"/"Spirit" moves on to a newly-conceived body.
I didn't read the other folder so I guess I'm reading that out of context but....that sounds much like Buddhism, of which I am, a Buddhist that is.
However, I can't speak for Computer O but in the Buddhism I know of it's not like the thinking mind/spirit moves on. Not like what some people think of as reincarnation. So maybe Computer is not talking about the same thing. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 02:24:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I, for one, subscribe to the thought that life-forms are hierchical: My cells are alive; my arm is alive; I am alive; the Local Ecology is alive; the Greater Ecology is alive; the Earth is alive; the Solar System is alive; the Milky Way is alive; the Universe is alive.
It depends how you look at it, I guess. Since we're inseparable parts of the universe just as stars and planets are, you could say that parts of the universe is alive and self-aware. But does it mean the universe is self-aware? It's an interesting question.
quote:
And by alive I also mean "self-aware", just as are you and I.
Some patterns can be self-aware, but it doesn't mean that all living things are self-aware or that all self-aware beings (organic or not) are alive.
quote:
BTW: I also subscribe to the widespread belief that while the BODY may die, the "intelligence"/"Spirit" moves on to a newly-conceived body.
Why? Does this apply to all self-aware beings, however they are made up? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 13:59:41 [Permalink]
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| As far as I know, only humans and a few more intellectually developed mammals show what we would consider self-awareness, and of those, only humans seems to have gone beyond simple existance in an effort to try and better understand the universe around us. There may be other self-aware creatures on other planets, but I really don't see how such definitions apply to other than organic ( and possible advanced machine intelligences elsewhere). |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 19:58:59 [Permalink]
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So, if the entire Earth is alive, and self-aware...
And if some cosmic hiccup (a nearby supernova or giant impact) were to destroy the Earth...
And if the life-force is eternal and indestructible...
Would the Earth then be reincarnated as some other planet in some other star system?
That would be quite a trick...
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-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 21:08:57 [Permalink]
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I like the idea that the so-called "lower life forms" and also completely inanimate objects are somehow self-aware. It adds support for my "vegetarianism is murder!" point-of-view.
Seriously, I once had a PETA member come up to me at a bar while I was wearing a leather jacket and hand me a little card which talked about the evils of wearing animal hides. I asked her how many cotton plants died for the shirt she was wearing. She had no answer for that, we chatted about killing things for sport vs. killing things for food and clothing, and we soon became friends. I never saw her hand out another little card, I never chided her about all the poor, defenseless heads of lettuce and other veggies she ate with glee, and she never said another word about my jacket.
(/hijack)
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 23:44:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Seriously, I once had a PETA member come up to me at a bar while I was wearing a leather jacket and hand me a little card which talked about the evils of wearing animal hides. I asked her how many cotton plants died for the shirt she was wearing
Forget about the cotton for a minute. I'd like to be serious for a change also.
I pretty much agree with PETA. Yes, they go overboard sometimes but hey! who doesn't when they believe in their cause?
The main point one should take from them is that all animals feel pain. Man is not the only creature on this planet who (should) control everything. Man should not have power over other animals.
We, and I guess I have to include myself as part of Mankind, have a choice to use other animals or not when we could use a substitute.
Using animals for our existance when we don't have to is the same as slavery.
Now, for the cotton: I do have trouble picking my tomatos off the vine, knowing I raised them from little seeds only to be devoured. But that's when it comes down to survival of the fittest. If they aren't smart enough to evolve enough to grow feet, is that my problem? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 21:40:22 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
But that's when it comes down to survival of the fittest. If they aren't smart enough to evolve enough to grow feet, is that my problem?
That's my attitude towards the rest of the biosphere. If cows can't evolve into cows which either fight back or run as fast as cheetahs, that's their problem, let's eat.
There are plenty of people in the world who don't have a choice. Pound-for-pound, meat is more nutritious than plants, and meat helps to grow itself.
Plus, why shouldn't Man have control over animals? If you look at the evolutionary picture, we will do ourselves in by killing off too many of them, and something else will gain control of the planet shortly afterwards. That's fine by me.
I'm not, of course, advocating the abuse of, or sadism towards, animals. I understand that animals feel pain, and I empathize with that pain when I see it. But if a few million mice can be killed relatively painlessly in order for a cure for some horrid human disease to be found, I'm all for it. There are some things for which there is no good substitute. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 23:00:37 [Permalink]
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Humans are animals, and like animals, we take what we can from our enviroment. Animals don't "conserve" the rainforest, they just don't have machines to exploit it the way we do. However, each species takes what it can, and tries to keep what it has, even if its only its own life. Other animals don't care if their food feels pain. Ethics and morality are a human invention. I think its nice not to want to inflict unneccesary pain on other animals if possible, but it isn't practical or logical to say that we shouldn't use, control, or kill other animals, plants, ect, since that is what living organisms do, exploit other organisms. Hopefully, being self-aware, we can behave in a manner that is not terminally destructive to other species or ourselves, but then again, we haven't been doing too hot there. On the other hand, over 99% of what we would label species in earth's history are extinct. Something to think about. They are easily replaced, on geological time scales.
As for self-awareness in animals, I was refering specifically to a few specific animal species that seem to exhibit some levels of it, such as chimps, orangatangs, and perhaps a few marine animals ( I have seen a few article on dolphines and whales that seem to indicate at least some rudimentary self-awareness.) |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 11:22:30 [Permalink]
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Another argument in favor of meat is that food animals (cattle, sheep, etc.) can convert very marginal land into food. Much of the territory used to support grazing animals cannot be used for growing food crops. It's important to guard against overgrazing such lands, of course, but proper management allows us to convert wasteland into protein.
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-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 12:40:31 [Permalink]
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| Bacon. Mmmmm. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:07:41 [Permalink]
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| If god did not want us to eat cows, he would not have made them out of meat. |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:58:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
If god did not want us to eat cows, he would not have made them out of meat.
lol
Or........he would have made them taste like celery or god forbid..... Snake's tomatoes!!
possible hijack here, but along the vague veggie vein, so to speak!
Why do veggies have vegetables shaped into meat dishes, ie sausages, cutlets, steaks etc. I'm no veggie, but I ain't never seen or ordered my steak cooked to look like a cauliflower! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 18:11:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Plus, why shouldn't Man have control over animals?
Because, he with all his 'self awareness' he should be above having to act superior to someone who is not as aware.
quote:
But if a few million mice can be killed relatively painlessly in order for a cure for some horrid human disease to be found, I'm all for it. There are some things for which there is no good substitute.
But if humans kill rats because they have disease that can kill man then we will have too many humans on Earth. It will be out of balance. Man needs to die. Or at least not take over everything everywhere on Earth.....or anywhere. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 18:19:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
I think its nice not to want to inflict unneccesary pain on other animals if possible, but it isn't practical or logical to say that we shouldn't use, control, or kill other animals, plants, ect, since that is what living organisms do, exploit other organisms. Hopefully, being self-aware, we can behave in a manner that is not terminally destructive to other species or ourselves, but then again, we haven't been doing too hot there.
You kind of say everything at one time!
That's right, don't inflict pain. Yes, right living things do try to control their environment but if they think ahead of consequencs they have a choice. As you said behave less destructive. So I say, why kill a higher form of living thing when one doesn't have to? |
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