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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2003 : 19:01:03
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Here we go again. The Creationist forces are much better financed and more sophisticated than they were during the last round of hearings, in 1997.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/6263915.htm
quote:
The long-running debate over the origins of mankind continues today before the State Board of Education, and the result could change the way science is taught in Texas and nationwide.
Local and out-of-state lobbying groups will try to convince the board that the next generation of biology textbooks should contain new scientific evidence that reportedly pokes holes in Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
Many of those groups say their intent is not to place a divine creator back into science books, but to show that Darwin's theory is not a perfect explanation of the origins of mankind.
"It has become a battleground," said Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which is dedicated to defending evolution in the classroom.emphasis added
and this interesting tidbit:quote:
Last year, the Cobb County school board in Georgia voted to include creationism in science classes.
Cobb County is a notable hotbed of Christian Reconstructionism, where Reconstructionist sympathizers gained contol of the county commission in 1993 and have continued to expand their power ever since:
quote:
Rev. Joseph Morecraft, whose very energetic and politically active
Reconstructionist Chalcedon Presbyterian Church draws most members from Marietta, Georgia, the Cobb County seat, provided a clear Reconstructionist view of these events. Asked at the time [1993]where he saw Biblical law advancing, he cited "the county where I live," where "they passed a law. . .that homosexuals are not welcome in that county, because homosexuality was against the community standards. The next week," he continued, "they voted on whether or not they should use tax money of the county to support art--immoral, pornographic art, so they make the announcement, not only are we not going to use tax monies in this county to sponsor pornographic art, we're not going to use tax money to sponsor any art, because that's not the role of civil government. And last week," he concluded, "[they voted] that no tax money in Cobb County will be spent on abortions."
Such views pale before Morecraft's deeper views of life and government. In his book, and especially when speaking at the 1993 Biblical World View and Christian Education Conference, Morecraft discussed with relish the police power of the state. His belief in the persecution of nonbelievers and those who are insufficiently orthodox is crystal clear. Morecraft described democracy as "mob rule," and stated that the purpose of "civil government" is to "terrorize evil doers. . . to be an avenger!" he shouted, "To bring down the wrath of God to bear on all those who practice evil!"
I can't be more clear than that.
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Edited by - Jimmy_Reynolds on 07/09/2003 19:02:04
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 02:27:09 [Permalink]
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Perhaps they should add to the curriculum the course "How to ruin a generation".
This is extremely worrying, because these creationists are deliberately (I can't see how it's not) trying to do exactly that, to ruin the education of a new generation. How can this help anyone? Imagine if the Bible said anything that could, in the eyes of the fundamentalists, ruin our atom model, or relativity? Perhaps the Bible could have said something about the characteristics of "the smallest building blocks of everything", or perhaps stating that "time is absolute and can only be made to go faster or slower by god"? What would happen to their physics education then? This is completely ridiculous. Religion is not science and therefor does not belong in science education. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Virtuous_Pagan
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 03:48:40 [Permalink]
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I've been lurking about here for a couple of weeks, but this is the first time I've posted. Hopefully, I'm not breaking any customs; however, I felt compelled to post a reply because I am from Marietta, Georgia. Hopefully, I can offer a glint of hope and allay some fears (assuming, of course, that the creation/evolution debate causes fears here).
In August of last year, the Cobb County School Board (just for reference, Cobb County is roughly thirty miles northwest of Atlanta) held a meeting in order to draft a policy that allowed for the legal teaching of "Creation Science." Of course, the school board had already passed a measure requiring so-called disclaimer stickers to be placed in the front of all biology texts in the county. At any rate, they couldn't change the curriculum without a public hearing, so literally hundreds of concerned citizens showed up to express their opinions, some for the inclusion of "Creation Science" and others against. Among those who showed up, were a couple of biology professors from Kennesaw State University (my Alma Mater for my undergraduate work), several professors from Georgia State University, and the University of Georgia, and several administrators for the University System of Georgia, arguing vociferously against the inclusion of "Creation Science" in the high school classroom. It was a standing-room only crowd, and tempers ran very high. Both sides accused the other side of being narrow minded, of course. Op-eds and letters to the editor flowed fast and thick to the AJC (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, for the uninitiated), as well.
Unsurprisingly, but to my utter chagrin, the school board passed the measure, because, as Jimmy noted in his post, there are quite a few fundies on the board. They did, indeed, pass a resolution banning, not just homosexual sex, but homosexuals, and they passed it right before the Olympic Games, to make some sort of statement, one imagines. Who knows how they thought they were going to enforce it? Perhaps they had some device that would alert them when a homosexual entered town? Need I say how absurd it all was? Anyway, I've gone far afield.
So, the fundies got their little "Creation Science" measure passed, and I wish them well of it because within a couple of months, the University System of Georgia passed their own lawful resolution stating that in order to enter biology classes at ANY state school (and the vast majority of students elect biology over chemistry or physics for their freshman science sequence--and the administrators know that) it is expected that the student will have studied the theory of evolution and understood the major points--because the theory of evolution will be taught exclusively in the biology classrooms of the state universities. And that effectively castrated their resolution because Cobb County prides itself on being "the most educated county in Georgia." They want those kiddies to go to college.
That's the ironic part, really; throughout the seventies and eighties, Cobb County was this little rural county where you could go to the "lake" and fish or camp out, so the fundies could get away with all their tricks, such as taking over the school board, for instance. During the nineties, however, it was boom time, as every one knows, and the population in and around Atlanta surged. Cobb County is now just a suburb of Atlanta (and, too bad for the fundies, Mid-town has a HUGE gay population), and the county is benefitting from all these educated "Northerners" and "Westerners" who have come to Atlanta, chasing the job. These people want their kids to go to college--and they want their kids to go to college in Georgia because if they graduate from high school in Georgia with a certain grade point average, they get the HOPE grant, which can be used at any STATE school. Reasonably good students get to attend college virtually free in Georgia thanks to the lottery. Sure, Cobb County is still primarily a conservative county, but the commission and the school board will be forced to mellow (or be removed) as more (and varied) people move in.
Aside: Not that I want you to think ill of southerners; I'm a southerner, born and raised, and I turned out reasonably well--despite the occasional tendency to use the word "fix" as a transitive verb meaning to prepare food or drink, and an unusual fondness for tomato sandwiches.
The moral of my long tale? Cobb County is a "victim" of its own prosperity, as, I'm sure, the fundies see it. If there's hope for Cobb County, there's hope for Texas. Admittedly, there's more at stake in Texas because, for some reason, the choice Texas makes in textbook contracts affects the choices the rest of the country has in textbooks. Still, if concerned people make a concerted effort, disaster can be averted. . .and barring that, one can take a page from the fundy book and play some "dirty" tricks. |
"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a Godless, uninhabited, hostile, and meaningless universe. . .Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
--Holly, the tenth generation AI, hologramatic computer aboard the Jupiter Mining Corporation ship The Red Dwarf |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 04:02:29 [Permalink]
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These tactics date back to the crash of the Falwell's Moral Majority, and the rise of the Reconstructionist's influence among the 'faithful', (see Filthy's post @ http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2136 )They've had setback after setback, yet they keep on comming. To their credit, by virtue of sheer tenacity and a friendly Executive, they've begun to make gains. However, I remain hopeful that the majority of the American people will see the deceitfulness behind their words and the intolerance of their beliefs before they do too much damage. 
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 04:19:52 [Permalink]
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Wecome Virtuous_Pagan. quote:
The moral of my long tale? Cobb County is a "victim" of its own prosperity, as, I'm sure, the fundies see it.
After leaving Tennessee, my family moved back to Georgia, (before Florida, and my settling in Louisiana). I graduated from High School in North Gwinnett. Then, it was a mostly rural area with many devout Baptists. (Now, I don't recognize the place!) Anyway, I do remember having occaissional school prayer that most students ignored, but Biology class still taught the fundamentals of evolution, if not evolution itself.
Today, after the tremendous growth of the past twenty years, and the increasing sophistication of the new 'Urbanites' I would think the trend would have changed. Virtually all of my family living in the Buford area are now liberal Christians. Is the Marrietta area any different?
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 07/10/2003 04:22:25 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 08:58:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Virtuous_Pagan
I've been lurking about here for a couple of weeks, but this is the first time I've posted.
Welcome!
quote:
I can offer a glint of hope and allay some fears (assuming, of course, that the creation/evolution debate causes fears here).
We don't fear the debate.
I can't speak for the others, but MY fear is that fanatical creationists might eventually get a chance to deny science teachings in schools.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 09:38:38 [Permalink]
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Hi VP, and Welcome! Hey, not to worry; around here, we don' need no steenkin' customs!
quote:
I can offer a glint of hope and allay some fears (assuming, of course, that the creation/evolution debate causes fears here).
We love, indeed live for these debates. Can't get enough of 'em. The score thus far is; Septic Fiends: all. Creation Blathers: none. The problem is that very few of the Creationists have much staying power. They show up, rant, get burned, and go away. Sad.
I grew up in Emory, Decatur, and Clarkston, back in the '40s and '50s. Had an older cousin who was a deputy sherrif in Cobb.
Like others here, I too, would not recognize Atlants nor Marrietta.
Again, Welcome, and thanks for a most interesting post!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 11:21:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
We love, indeed live for these debates. Can't get enough of 'em. The score thus far is; Septic Fiends: all. Creation Blathers: none
Yup, Creation88 was the last one.....for a creationist he was a stayer
Though I loved his first post.
quote:
I could go on forever, but I am not gonna, so what im trying to say is that the so called "experts" in evolution are lieing to us all, they know it's not true they just don't want to face the cosiquences of god being the real creator. (How does it feel to have no answers to a 14 yr old)
After I read that, I knew it was going to be on for young and old. Well we ain't seen him around for a while.
At least you got him to punctuate his postings correctly filthy. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 13:11:47 [Permalink]
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Texans who are concerned about this should immediately email the TEA. The email address isn't given fully at the bottom of the link provided by Jimmy Reynolds. The full address is lthomas@tea.state.tx.us
The TEA homepage says that they will consider electronically sent comments from Texans. But time is short! The last day for the hearings is tomorrow, July 11. The Houston, TX newspaper didn't mention these hearings until today. As a result, public outrage over this wont come to the attention of the Board until it is too late.
Let them know your feelings about this!!!
Here is the text of my comments to them:
I am appalled that the Board is even considering inclusion of Intelligent Design in science textbooks. Intelligent Design is dependent upon the existence of the Designer. Unless the book explicitly states that the Designer isn't a supernatural entity, deity, or God, then ID must be considered of religious foundation. Further, ID "teaching" consists of nothing other than negative critiques of theories about evolution. It cannot be otherwise. If the Designer said "Let there be live," and there was life in its current form, what can be said? What is there to study or learn? The entire theory can be related in a single sentence. In order to devote a textbook to it, they must resort to negative critiques of the theories about evolution.
Including this in science books will do a great disservice to the students and to future generations. Medical research into cancer and diseases such as AIDS and SARS requires a firm foundation in the processes of evolution. Already more and more of these research positions in our country are filled by foreign nationals from countries where real science is taught. Meanwhile, our kids are growing up to flip burgers or sell insurance.
Teaching ID in public schools must be rejected. It isn't science, and it interferes with student's ability to understand the basic principles of real science.
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 14:34:40 [Permalink]
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Thanks, Sanity, for posting the complete address. I already had it and didn't realize that it was incomplete in the article.
I took a little bit different tack in my most recent letter to the Board, emphasizing the conspiracist nature of ID and creationist claims and their relationship to other conspiracy claims:
quote:
Intelligent Design: Conspiracy Theory
I urge the Board to reject all attempts to include so-called "Intelligent Design" in Texas textbooks.
The proponents of Intelligent Design claim that their ideas are purely secular and scientific in nature, and have nothing to do with an attempt to inject religion into Texas classrooms.
These claims are provably and obviously false and deceptive.
These claims are harmful to the children of Texas and to the community at large in other ways as well.
They necessarily imply a classic paranoid conspiracy theory: that the global scientific community has conspired for over one hundred years to suppress information and data that are contrary to Darwinian evolution.
Is this really what we want the children of Texas to be taught?
What of the "assumption of the consequent" ("If this is true, what else must be true?") that invariably follows belief in a conspiracy theory?
If we teach our children this conspiracy theory, and we must if we endorse the validity of "Intelligent Design", then we make it much easier for them to accept other conspiracist claims. Are ufo's really alien spacecraft? Do Jewish bankers secretly control the world? Is the government spraying poisonous chemicals on our neighborhoods? Did NASA fake the Moon landings? Why not?
This is a mental health issue, not a scientific one.
The proponents of Intelligent Design are power-seeking charlatans, and their ideas could do untold damage to this state and its people by abolishing the commitment to logic and critical thought in the public schools.
Make a positive statement affirming reason, sanity, and public integrity. Reject "Intelligent Design".
Thank you,
Jimmy Reynolds (University of North Texas, 1976)
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| Edited by - Jimmy_Reynolds on 07/10/2003 14:37:28 |
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 14:41:53 [Permalink]
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Thanks for your response, Jimmy. I'm happy to learn that I'm not the only one who has responded on this. Your approach is one I haven't seen before. It is perhaps one more apt to obtain the endorsement of the Christian conservatives on the Board. Let us hope that sanity  prevails.
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 09:53:25 [Permalink]
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The creationist/conspira-loon connection managed to get a soundbite on CNN yesterday:
quote:
JOHN COURAGE, HIGH SCHOOL SCIENCE TEACHER: If we put intelligent design into our biology textbooks based on the misrepresentation of real scientific fact, and the conjecture that its proponents rely on, then we may as well add the study of flying saucers and aliens from outer space to our biology and physics book.
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 16:46:33 [Permalink]
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In the CNN link provided by Jimmy Reynolds, Brain Leiter, professor of law and philosophy at the U of T, makes an important point. The contents of our kids's textbooks is determined by people who have no education or training in the relevent fields. With the resultant dumbing down of the curriculum in general and in the science curriculum, it is no wonder that so many are apt to accept pseudo-scientific claims, conspiracy theories, and creationism.
Our public schools are producing young adults with scientific backgrounds and rational thinking capacities that are no greater than those of the uneducated in the centuries before modern science. As a result they are just as apt to accept magical explanations as our ancestors in ages past. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 20:41:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanity
In the CNN link provided by Jimmy Reynolds, Brain Leiter, professor of law and philosophy at the U of T, makes an important point. The contents of our kids's textbooks is determined by people who have no education or training in the relevent fields. With the resultant dumbing down of the curriculum in general and in the science curriculum, it is no wonder that so many are apt to accept pseudo-scientific claims, conspiracy theories, and creationism.
Our public schools are producing young adults with scientific backgrounds and rational thinking capacities that are no greater than those of the uneducated in the centuries before modern science. As a result they are just as apt to accept magical explanations as our ancestors in ages past.
Hmm. Might this be evolution in action?
Yeah, I know. Hard sayin's. But........... |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 11:04:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hmm. Might this be evolution in action?
Yeah, I know. Hard sayin's. But...........
No. Political actions effecting what is taught our children isn't an example of gradual genetic changes manifested through successive generations. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 11:07:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanity
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hmm. Might this be evolution in action?
Yeah, I know. Hard sayin's. But...........
No. Political actions effecting what is taught our children isn't an example of gradual genetic changes manifested through successive generations.
I think filthy's quote was to be taken as "tounge in cheek"
Should have put the  in f |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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