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Julie_Bris
New Member
Australia
24 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2003 : 14:51:28
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BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE
1953 - US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran
US instals Shah as dictator
1954 - US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala
200,000 civilians killed
1963 - US backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem
1963 – 1975 - American military kills 4million people in Southeast Asia
1973 Sept 11 - US stages coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed
5,000 Chileans murdered
1977 - US backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans & 4 American nuns killed
1980's - US trains Osama bin Laden & fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3billion
1981 - Regan administration trains & funds “contras” 30,000 Nicaraguans die
1982 - US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians
1983 - White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis
1989 - CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington.
US invades Panama & removes Noriega.
3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
1990 - Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US
1991 - US enters Iraq
Bush Snr reinstates dictator of Kuwait
1998 - Clinton bombs “weapons factory” in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making “Aspirin”
1991 to present - American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis
UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing & sanctions
2000 – 01 - US gives Taliban ruled Afganistan $245million in “aid” (we all know what “aid” stands for)
2001 Sept 11 - Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to attack the World Trade Centre
1999 April 20 - Largest 1 day bombing by US in Kosovo war on the hit list were local Hospitals & Primary Schools
ONE HOUR LATER
Shooting at Columbine High School. Over 900 rounds of amo fired which was bought at K-Mart
PEOPLE KILLED BY GUNS EACH YEAR
USA - 11,127
Germany – 381
France – 255
Canada – 165
UK – 68
Australia – 65
Japan – 39
NRA  – still insists that it's every Americans right to own a firearm
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK NRA - NOT!!!! 
Oh and yeah where else but America “land of the free and home of the brave” can you not only purchase ammunition from your local K-Mart & barber shop but you can also open an Account at your local Bank and receive a riffle in return, as appreciation for doing so.
CAN ANYONE ELSE SEE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE
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My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, racism and arrogance. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2003 : 22:12:21 [Permalink]
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Julie Bris wrote:quote:
PEOPLE KILLED BY GUNS EACH YEAR
I'm no pro-gun NRA member, but when arguing against them, it's important to not distort the facts. Per-capita gun violence is a much more meaningful metric than just the total number of deaths. Here:
USA - 11,127 / 280,562,489 = 39.7/million
Germany – 381 / 83,251,851 = 4.6/million
France – 255 / 59,765,983 = 4.3/million
Canada – 165 / 31,902,268 = 5.2/million
UK – 68 / 59,778,002 = 1.1/million
Australia – 65 / 19,546,792 = 3.3/million
Japan – 39 / 126,974,628 = 0.3/million
(Population numbers from the CIA World Factbook 2002.)
So, rather than a ratio of 11,127 to 381, or 29.2 times "worse" than Germany, the per-capita reality appears to be that gun violence in the U.S. is only 7.6 times worse than in Canada.
Really, what this should be is a starting point for examining why the rates differ as much as they do, and whether it really means anything, since there are other forms of violent homicide than just shooting people.
But, let's stick with the guns for now, since I don't feel the urge to go digging up knife-fight statistics.
Clearly, Japan's low rate can probably be attributed to several factors, not least of which is a very strict level of gun control. Even nail guns require a licence in Japan. Would the culture of the U.S. tolerate a background check for the purchase of what is, basically, an automatic hammer?
In the U.K., it is illegal to own handguns. Rifles are legal, but in Scotland (at least), it is required that you keep them locked up when not in use. This seems quite reasonable to me, especially since there is no Constitutional right to bear any kind of arm you want - it is already illegal for many types of weapon to be privately owned here in the U.S. (fully-operational Apache helicopters, for example), so what's the problem? Why should handguns, which seem to account for the majority of "crimes of passion," be allowed?
Of course, your entire post leading up to the "PEOPLE KILLED BY GUNS EACH YEAR" concluding section is a complete non-sequitor. A point about how vicious, underhanded, and hypocriotical the U.S. government has been in the past would have been appropriate, but Columbine? Unless you're trying to say that U.S. foreign policy led those kids to kill their classmates, your post as a whole makes no sense. The first two-thirds don't lead to the last third in any sort of logical sense.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2003 : 22:49:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Of course, your entire post leading up to the "PEOPLE KILLED BY GUNS EACH YEAR" concluding section is a complete non-sequitor. A point about how vicious, underhanded, and hypocriotical the U.S. government has been in the past would have been appropriate, but Columbine? Unless you're trying to say that U.S. foreign policy led those kids to kill their classmates, your post as a whole makes no sense. The first two-thirds don't lead to the last third in any sort of logical sense.
Thank you Dave for pointing all that out.
I might add two other points:
One doesn't hear as much about all the times guns probably have prevented crimes because 'good' innocent people were carrying them and used them against the bad guy. What if they had no protection?
If anyone takes what Michael Moore says as truth they had better check the facts for themselves. True, I didn't see that movie but I did see some of that stupid cartoon about the KKK that was a part of it, on Oprah I think and funny as it was there was a lot of misinformation in it that was I think supposed to be meant as fact. No, no, you can't do that and call it a documentary.
And let's not forget the argument that 1st they take the guns away before a dictator can take over! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 09:15:10 [Permalink]
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The fact is, not matter how you break down the statistics, there is an alarming rate of gun violence in America. And that is my concern.
The NRA has attempted to block every reasonable attempt to make it harder to own any weapon. Most of the time, they are successful. Lately, and finally, people are starting to take a harder look at their positions, in part, because of films like "Bowling…" If some of Moore's facts do not add up, I think it is fair to criticize that. On the other hand, much of what Moore is suggesting in the film, I believe, is on target. His attack on the media for creating a climate of fear with their nightly fear report is an example of that. Local news is not news at all anymore. It has become thirty minutes of fear mongering.
There are studies that support all sides of the gun issue. Having said that, I do believe that private gun ownership for self defense has lead to more accidental shootings, crimes of passion that would not have otherwise lead to a death, and guns that have been stolen and used in crimes, than have actually been used for self defense.
Did you know that the NRA has successfully blocked the Center for Disease Controls effort to collect data on gun violence? Ask yourself, why would they do that?
I personally think there is a madness in this country concerning gun ownership. Sort of a cowboy mentality. I think its way past time that we take a closer look at what has worked in other countries and start implementing those measures.
I have a hard time believing that we will be a more civilized country when we are all carrying side arms for protection...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 10:53:33 [Permalink]
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| I'm sorry, being quite ignorant of US politics, but how does a association actually block someone researching some statistics? |
Baza |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 12:50:48 [Permalink]
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The CDC is a government agency which exists on government funding. A political organization with some clout inside the government can block funding for certain groups. This is probably how this has occurred.
As far as gun ownership goes, I do think that a safety course covering, proper storage of a weapon, proper handling of a weapon, and when to recognize the necessity of use, should be required for all gun owners. When my father was with the sheriffs department in NV most gun violence he saw was where a criminal gained control of the weapon. If you own a gun, keep it locked up - this should help prevent crimes of passion too. Keeping a gun locked up means keeping the weapon in one location and the rounds in another. Use child safety devices on all weapons, one of and cheapest I saw for handguns was esentially a large rubber band that had a piece that fit in the muzzle of the weapon and wrapped around the grip, blocking access to the trigger. It worked well, I had difficulty putting it on and taking it off. This won't prevent an older child from gaining use of the weapon, but if it's locked up properly...
Gun ownership requires a healthy dose of responsibility. I did sell my 9mm when I was pregnant, figured I could wait to own a weapon until my kid was old enough to understand the responsibility and safety issues required in handling a weapon. It's important to let a child know that a weapon - any weapon - does real damage, if you intend to have a weapon in your home. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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wonkavision
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 13:03:11 [Permalink]
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| Once again, as I've found wandering through these threads, I agree with Trish's stance. Emphasis should be placed on responsible gun ownership before we decide to set the precedent that it's open season on the bill of rights. |
So shy a good deed in such a weary world... |
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 13:27:09 [Permalink]
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Thanks for that Trish.
Now as I understand it the constitution allows the right to own firearms. Now it seems to me that the need to own guns is directly related to how secure you feel. In the UK there are, we know notourious places where guns exist and where guns are used on a regular basis but I don't feel a threat from guns and therefore find it difficult to understand why one would need to own a gun. Trish, did the threat dissappear when you where pregnant or did you feel the risks outweighed the security? |
Baza |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 13:27:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Gun ownership requires a healthy dose of responsibility.
As does owning a car, or doing anything else that interacts with others.
If someone is going to be violent, she's going to do it with or without a gun. Ok, so get rid of all the guns in the USA and the world. Does that eliminate accidents, violence and the hatred in the world? People are still going to think of ways to do what they want to do, fight, retaliate, criminal activities, whatever else they can do to one another without a gun.
The problem is not enough education in the beggining, not running after a problem trying to slove it after it's gotten out of hand. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 19:15:22 [Permalink]
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Snake, you are right, to a point.
I agree that the problem boils itself down to education in most cases.
I also agree that removing guns will not remove violence; however, it would make many violent acts less severe. Guns are far more damaging that most other weapons. (I agree that a knife can kill as well, but it takes a little more skill and proximity to the target -- have you ever heard of a drive-by stabbing?) I have not yet fully made up my mind on the "gun control" issue, but I do feel tighter controls should be in effect. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 21:31:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Snake, you are right, to a point.
I agree that the problem boils itself down to education in most cases.
Thanks. That's more than your father would do.
quote:
I also agree that removing guns will not remove violence; however, it would make many violent acts less severe. Guns are far more damaging that most other weapons. (I agree that a knife can kill as well, but it takes a little more skill and proximity to the target -- have you ever heard of a drive-by stabbing?)
I have no statistics and no solid eveidence so take this as you will:
Are drive bys really a major factor in all the gun violences, they are known because they are scary and make the news but all in all I'd bet they are not the most dangerous.
Knifes, don't seem as threatening but I'd bet the police could argue that. (I'll ask when I get a chance, but I may not tell the answer if I'm wrong) A few years ago in Hollywood, remember that lady vagrant who was killed by the police because they said she had knife and wouldn't put it down? I don't think untrained people with guns could aim better or worse with a knife and a knife can be thrown far.
I also think gun for knife, a knife does more damage to the body, close up or not.
So, again, ban guns....a robber comes up to you, points a KNIFE in your side.....well? Did we change anything by not allowing him to have a gun? A knife is easier to carry. One stab and twist in the right place and you have serious dammage. Seems to me with a gun and the chance it's a small caliber you might have a better chance of surviving. But maybe that is getting too picky at this point.
I do have statistics for my area on crime...they are laying around somewhere, if I find them I'll let you know but I don't recall seeing that drive bys were more prevalent than other crimes. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2003 : 09:42:32 [Permalink]
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This is called blaiming the tool on the crime and not the criminal. It is every American's right to own a gun unless that person does something to cause them to loose that right such as committing a felony.
Increasing gun control only makes it harder for:
1. Normal citizens to purchase guns.
2. Crazy people buying a gun on impluse to go on a shooting spree or commit suicide.
It does not stop:
1. Hardened criminals illegally acquiring a gun.
2. Fringe milita groups stock piling weapons.
3. Or young distrubed teen age boys who acquired their guns illegally planning their school shooting spree.
4. A person planning a suicide.
Blaiming America's violent crime problem on guns and trying to outlaw them is beyond reason and ignores the real problems behind our violent elements in society.
Look at where most violent gun deaths occur in the U.S. and you will see a pattern that happens to mimic where the poorest and least uneducated people live. Inner cities, ghettos, poor Appalachian areas, etc.
quote:
Oh and yeah where else but America “land of the free and home of the brave” can you not only purchase ammunition from your local K-Mart & barber shop but you can also open an Account at your local Bank and receive a riffle in return, as appreciation for doing so.
CAN ANYONE ELSE SEE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE
There is nothing wrong with this picture. Blaiming violent crime problems on guns is scape goating the real issues. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2003 : 09:58:08 [Permalink]
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The thing is, the reason people own guns is often stated as protection yet the instances guns are used for that are anecdotes. Basically that entire argument is all but worthless. So, yeah you have a right to own guns but for what purpose? Just to have them so they can be stolen so criminals and crazy people can get at them? So your troubled teenager can access them? So you, in the heat of passion, might do something you might not otherwise do?
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2003 : 12:27:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
The thing is, the reason people own guns is often stated as protection yet the instances guns are used for that are anecdotes. Basically that entire argument is all but worthless. So, yeah you have a right to own guns but for what purpose? Just to have them so they can be stolen so criminals and crazy people can get at them? So your troubled teenager can access them? So you, in the heat of passion, might do something you might not otherwise do?
@tomic
It appears that your reasons for not owning guns are also anecdotes and thus are also all but worthless. Note I never claimed so I can defend myself as a reason to own guns (by the way I never owned a gun until last week when my father in law gave me a .22 bolt action rifle, so I am not a rabid gun owner although I really enjoy shooting them).
Finally for reasons:
1. Enjoyment including sports (hunting, shooting, etc.), collecting antiques, etc.
2. Freedom based on the freaking fact that I am a responsible adult and am capable of owning whatever in the fuck I feel like no matter how many gun control advocates cry that me owning a gun somehow causes violent crime and that taking that right away will somehow cause it stop.
3. The Constitution of the U.S., the country I happen to live in says I can. Take away one right guaranteed to me by the Bill of Rights why not take away another? What's to stop the politicians to say Freedom of Speech has gone too far, all anti-American talk is now punishable?
4. To resist tyranny to the best of my ability. Yes it sounds crazy, but if this nation fell under tyrannic rule then I and any willing and able-bodied person could join together to form a resistance. Just like some of the citizens of Iraq are doing this very moment. Give up our rights to own guns and we subject ourselves to the possibility of tyranny without much opposition.
I do not say self defense for myself because I do not carry a gun and I know that in a crime the fact that you have a gun can be a danger more than it is helpful.
However my parents who live in very rural Eastern KY do carry handguns. They have upon occasion used those guns for self defense including against would be burglars and wild dogs.
If you don't mind please keep your dirty freedom stealing hands away from me.
Edited to add:
Our freedoms are continuously under attack, whether they be speech, privacy, religious freedom, reproductive rights, voting rights (ala Florida), and our rights to own guns. THe Bill of Rights is the most hotly contested document in our nation constantly under attack.
I will defend my freedoms given to me by the Bill of Rights no matter what they are because my freedoms are my most precious possessions, but they can be taken away. If you want to attack and weaken the Bill of Rights that is your perogative, but that is a Pandora's Box I would rather not open if it isn't already too late. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 08/04/2003 12:34:48 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2003 : 13:21:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
jmcginn:
3. The Constitution of the U.S., the country I happen to live in says I can. Take away one right guaranteed to me by the Bill of Rights why not take away another?
quote:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
So, do you belong to a well regulated militia? What is a well regulated militia in today's America? Are any and all arms ok? How about personally owned nukes? Problem here is a lot has changed since this amendment was written. Does a persons rights trump the safety of others?
I am not against all private ownership of guns. I do support gun control.
I understand the danger in messing with the constitution. However, it is my opinion that this amendment could stand some amending. We are not talking about muskets anymore...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2003 : 13:26:05 [Permalink]
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I feel that this is one ammendment that infringes on my right to live without fear of some idiot capping me because he's had too much to drink or some other lame ass reason.
I think handguns should be banned for personal use. They are not sport tools. Shotguns do have their place and they are much harder to conceal. But hand guns have to go.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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