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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 09/09/2003 : 08:07:09 [Permalink]
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Actually no. I agree with it under no circumstances. Many situations are DEEPLY saddening. But it does not change the fact that a baby's life is being taken away. Specificly...
quote:
If a woman is raped. Terrible situation bt does not give her the right to kill, thats right KILL a baby.
What gave the rapist a right to rape her? Did she have a choice that she was impregnated by someone who does not give a flying you know what about her? Just for a moment, don't be so self-righteous and put yourself in a woman's shoes.
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If a teenage girl gets pregnant. It is her fault for getting pregnant in the first place. And she should have to go through with the consiquences.
So in a perfect world, one is not allowed to make a mistake. How can a 15-year-old girl support a human life???? What is she doesn't care about the child and abuses it or refuses to bond with it?
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A baby born into an ignorant or even abbusive home. I would bet my right arm that, 999 out of 1000 kids even in abusive homes are glad there mothers did not abort them. They have every right to live, and make better lives for themselves than there parents gave them.
Again, a perfect world. You obviously have no friends that have taken their own lives because of the hell they have been put through by arseholes. Once you live a bit longer, you might be affected by someone that has come from an abusive relationship.
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If a chhild is born and will not live long. How does that make us think.. well he's not gonna live real long anyway, so lets just take him out before he lives at all. Has anyone else but me noticed how happy a child with downs syndrome is???? Many happier than you or me.
Even if he does not live as long or can do less than me, he deserves to live as long as possible.
One end of the scale, what if the child is born with such a defect that he is unable to live without the help of a machine or 24 hour a day care. It's all relative.
And finally, God forbid, what if the child is GAY…..oh dear, from what I have seen from some xtians, gays should be strung up and killed.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 17:56:06 [Permalink]
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At the risk of rudely correcting people, which I hate:
Rape isn't just 'saddening' or 'a terrible situation.' It can be devastating and life-altering. For you to imply that a raped woman must bear yet another burden and have yet another choice taken out of her hands by being forced to bear the child is morally offensive--not to mention cruel.
Maybe it's kind of a chick thang, but I just couldn't let that one go by.
Carry on.
"God have mercy on the man/who doubts what he's sure of"
--Bruce Springsteen
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 21:54:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
Dr.Mabuse:
No it's not wrong... God makes it happen all the time, but we call it miscarriage
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Yes it is wrong, because god does Not make abortion happen all the time. We do. A miscarriage is a extremly sad event, but it's natural. Abortion is not.
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Well, since I've already concluded that an embryo is a parasite unless it is wanted by its carrier
Wow! I think you summed up everything that is wrong with abortion right there. A baby is a parasite unless.... the mother dicides she wants the baby????? What is it mind over matter? A pregnant woman is planning to have an abortion, but then decides not to. In that moment the baby has transformed for a parasite to.. a baby. Please explain that can't be what you really meant.
Ehh. no it's not exactly what I meant, and I didn't type it right. What I actually meant was that EVEN WHEN a mother decides to continue the pregnancy, the embryo will still technically be a parasite because it's attached to its host, and feeding on it, without being able to sustain its own life outside the womb.
But Creation88, you're trying to dodge the question I asked you:
"I have heard that there has been several incidents where pro-life people has committed acts of violence against doctors performing abortions.
Please tell me, do you support these acts of violence?"
You have insinuated in your post that you'd gladly make violence on a person named Benny Hin, (I don't know that name, so I couldn't say if he deserves it or not.) So I'd like you to spell it out.
You think it's morally wrong with abortions, and you're entitled to. But will you do anything to prevent others from doing abortion, other than stating your opinion?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 22:09:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
At the risk of rudely correcting people, which I hate:
Rape isn't just 'saddening' or 'a terrible situation.' It can be devastating and life-altering. For you to imply that a raped woman must bear yet another burden and have yet another choice taken out of her hands by being forced to bear the child is morally offensive--not to mention cruel.
Maybe it's kind of a chick thang, but I just couldn't let that one go by.
While I can not presume to understand the turmoil a woman will go through in the scenario you describe, I would not pass judgement on her for whatever choice she makes.
Creation88 writes that suicide rates are much higher amongst women who perform abortions, but I have yet to see a link or a reference to an actual survey.
However, I would guess that the suicide rate of women being raped are much higher. But that's just a guess of mine, since I haven't seen any survey about it.
So you got to ask yourself a question: what choice it better, or in Creation88's mind, less evil?
Does he dare make that distinction? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2003 : 21:34:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dr.Mabuse:
You have insinuated in your post that you'd gladly make violence on a person named Benny Hin, (I don't know that name, so I couldn't say if he deserves it or not.) So I'd like you to spell it out.
You think it's morally wrong with abortions, and you're entitled to. But will you do anything to prevent others from doing abortion, other than stating your opinion?
Benny Hin, is a man who claims to make miraculous healings,. Even though he has been proved a fake countless times, I still see him on TV. Giving a ver false view of what christians are. And I did not say I would gladly commit violence against him. I said I feel like it some times. I would not murder anyone unless they were threatening me, and it would save my life. It was a joke when I said that, not meant to be taken seriously at all.
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But Creation88, you're trying to dodge the question I asked you:
"I have heard that there has been several incidents where pro-life people has committed acts of violence against doctors performing abortions.
Please tell me, do you support these acts of violence?"
How on earth can you say I am trying to dodge that question. I said in no way do I support them. And I also pointed out that there are warped people on both sides of the argument. And that pro-life was not the only side with murders. Maybe the more appropriate thing to say is you are trying to dodge my question of do you support acts of violence against pro-lifers?
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At the risk of rudely correcting people, which I hate:
quote:
Ranae:
Rape isn't just 'saddening' or 'a terrible situation.' It can be devastating and life-altering. For you to imply that a raped woman must bear yet another burden and have yet another choice taken out of her hands by being forced to bear the child is morally offensive--not to mention cruel.
Maybe it's kind of a chick thang, but I just couldn't let that one go by.
Carry on.
At the risk of letting you know that, you might actually not know everything!!!!!!
You seem to be missing something. You talk like I think it's not difficult or even life altering to be raped. But no matter how hard it is it's still murder. You talk like you have extra info, and what you say should be regarded with utmost importance. People are gonna tell me I do the same thing when I put this up, but that's really not true. The pure arogence in the way you say things makes me sick.
quote:
Gezzam:
And finally, God forbid, what if the child is GAY…..oh dear, from what I have seen from some xtians, gays should be strung up and killed.
Did I say anything hostel toward gays?????? I put a post up clearly stating I dis-agree with it. But I and no body I know has that opinion. That was made up by people who support it to make us look bad. Before you argue it, face it, it's true. No christians, if they are true christians(no catholic doesn't count) Believe that Gays should be killed. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 04:29:01 [Permalink]
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I've been staying out of this mainly because I'm not sure of where I stand on the issue. I will say that I'm pro-choice (does that mean I'm also pro-death?).
However, I find the abortion of a fetus disgusting.
I rather doubt that abortion advocates (that's an ugly term, isn't it?) feel any other way. No one but a madman would want to harm a child. Which brings us back to wondering: at exactly what point does a mass of dividing cells become a child? Me, I dunno, but I do not believe it is at or shortly after conception. Of course, that last statment will revive the tired, old argument we've been hearing for years, from groups both religious and secular, that seems unlikely to ever reach a conclusion. Just my two cents, for what it's worth (slightly less than a tuppence, I suspect).
Hm. C'88, if I've read your last post correctly, you don't consider Catholics to be 'true Christians'. Why is this? Is not their church almost fanaticly anti-abortion? Do they not worship the same deity, albeit in a somewhat different fashion? Apologies for picking a very minor nit, but I'm honestly curious. I've heard the same from other Christians -- lots of deep-water Baptists around here -- but have never recieved a satisfactory explanation. Perhaps you might want to start a new thread on the subject.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 04:55:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hm. C'88, if I've read your last post correctly, you don't consider Catholics to be 'true Christians'. Why is this? Is not their church almost fanaticly anti-abortion? Do they not worship the same deity, albeit in a somewhat different fashion? Apologies for picking a very minor nit, but I'm honestly curious. I've heard the same from other Christians -- lots of deep-water Baptists around here -- but have never recieved a satisfactory explanation. Perhaps you might want to start a new thread on the subject.
When people like C'88 start going on about one true religion, it always make me think of the quote
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." by Stephen Roberts |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 09:01:01 [Permalink]
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<<At the risk of letting you know that, you might actually not know everything!!!!!!
You seem to be missing something. You talk like I think it's not difficult or even life altering to be raped. But no matter how hard it is it's still murder. You talk like you have extra info, and what you say should be regarded with utmost importance. People are gonna tell me I do the same thing when I put this up, but that's really not true. The pure arogence in the way you say things makes me sick.>>
C88, I'm a skeptic. I admit I don't know everything. I believe none of us knows everything.
However, I'm a woman. I do, therefore, have knowledge and experiences with both my uterus and with walking the world as a woman that you can't logically have. I'm assuming that you are a man; forgive me if you're not. (A woman's experience is different from that of a man in many ways--which is a whole 'nother thread.)
It's not required to have experience with something in order to have an opinion on it. Nowhere did I say or imply this.
However again: If you do not have a uterus, or if you have one but haven't agonized over an unwanted/conflicted pregnancy, you cannot know what a woman goes through. If you are wise and empathetic, you can imagine it--or you can relate it to similar things you've gone through. But you don't really know what's in her heart.
It's the same with being raped, which does happen to men but from what I've read, not as often. You simply don't know what it feels like unless you've lived it.
So it seems to me it's your attitude that's arrogant, not mine. It seems as though a compassionate man would be cautious about forming judgments about things which he will never experience. Maybe empathy, tolerance and humility aren't paramount in your brand of fire-and-brimstone Christianity. Which is a pity.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 14:46:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
And that pro-life was not the only side with murders. Maybe the more appropriate thing to say is you are trying to dodge my question of do you support acts of violence against pro-lifers?
I wasn't aware you posed such a question, but I can answer anyway.
I do not support acts of violence against pro-lifers (=people who oppose abortion).
As I said, I'm pro-life myself, in the sense that an abortion should be made for medical, psychological, or social reasons to secure or improve the life already existing.
quote:
At the risk of rudely correcting people, which I hate:
quote:
Ranae:
Rape isn't just 'saddening' or 'a terrible situation.' It can be devastating and life-altering. For you to imply that a raped woman must bear yet another burden and have yet another choice taken out of her hands by being forced to bear the child is morally offensive--not to mention cruel.
Maybe it's kind of a chick thang, but I just couldn't let that one go by.
Carry on.
At the risk of letting you know that, you might actually not know everything!!!!!!
You seem to be missing something. You talk like I think it's not difficult or even life altering to be raped. But no matter how hard it is it's still murder. You talk like you have extra info, and what you say should be regarded with utmost importance. People are gonna tell me I do the same thing when I put this up, but that's really not true. The pure arogence in the way you say things makes me sick.
The fact that Renae is a woman and you are obviously male, I can definitely say that she speaks with more authority than you regarding the impact and implications of having to carry a child that is the product of a rape.
I agree with Renae it's utterly cruel.
quote:
Did I say anything hostel toward gays?????? I put a post up clearly stating I dis-agree with it. But I and no body I know has that opinion. That was made up by people who support it to make us look bad. Before you argue it, face it, it's true. No christians, if they are true christians(no catholic doesn't count) Believe that Gays should be killed.
Now look who's talking...
You though Renae was arrogant, but this beats everything else hands down.
Who are you to judge who are true christians and who are not?
You stink of bigotry.
And it's wrong of you to mix cotton and nylon in your clothing!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 20:51:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
Hm. C'88, if I've read your last post correctly, you don't consider Catholics to be 'true Christians'. Why is this? Is not their church almost fanaticly anti-abortion? Do they not worship the same deity, albeit in a somewhat different fashion? Apologies for picking a very minor nit, but I'm honestly curious. I've heard the same from other Christians -- lots of deep-water Baptists around here -- but have never recieved a satisfactory explanation. Perhaps you might want to start a new thread on the subject.
It is much more than just different styles of worship. I did misspeak, though only a little bit. I am not saying there aren't any chritians in the catholic church. But they make so many contridictions to the bible. The bible makes it clear, that to get to heaven, it must not be by works but by faith. Which is why I believe Saddam Hussain could go to heaven if he believed in god even for the last two seconds of his life. The catholic church is all about, do enough good things and you will go to heaven. The bible also clearly states there is only ONE mediator between God and man. And that is Jesus Christ the Son. While the catholic church still prays to saints, because they are "closer to god". And for the person who asked me "who am I to judge". I am nobody to judge. The bible is. And thats what I go by. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2003 : 21:53:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
It is much more than just different styles of worship. I did misspeak, though only a little bit. I am not saying there aren't any chritians in the catholic church. But they make so many contridictions to the bible. The bible makes it clear, that to get to heaven, it must not be by works but by faith. Which is why I believe Saddam Hussain could go to heaven if he believed in god even for the last two seconds of his life. The catholic church is all about, do enough good things and you will go to heaven. The bible also clearly states there is only ONE mediator between God and man. And that is Jesus Christ the Son. While the catholic church still prays to saints, because they are "closer to god". And for the person who asked me "who am I to judge". I am nobody to judge. The bible is. And thats what I go by.
Murder, rape, and torture all your life, then repent on your deathbed - spend eternity in bliss.
Live an exemplary life of goodness and kindness, constantly sacrificing for the betterment of your fellows, but don't believe in the Christian God - spend eternity being tortured.
That's the kind of religious thought that leads the overzealous to believe that murder is moral because they've "accepted Jesus into their heart". It also encompasses the concept that anyone who has not "accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior" will burn in hell, thus condemning all babies who die from disease or accident before they are old enough to understand the simplest of religious thoughts to an eternity of torture. Think what you will about abortion, but torturing innocent babies for eternity is a greater evil.
- Henry
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 02:56:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
The bible makes it clear, that to get to heaven, it must not be by works but by faith.
Sorry that this is getting off the topic but the thought just came to me and I really would like to know the answer.
What about all those people who lived before the bible was written and before there was that one god that xians worship? Do they rot in hell because they never knew about god?
I suppose the Romans who had many gods or the Asians who followed the Buddha 500 years before Jesus, didn't exist in history because creationists think Adam and Eve were the 1st people on Earth and the world is only 6,000 years old. Right? So the people who lived before (excuse me), their supposed documented existance from several thousand years before the bible, don't have to worry about being in Hell because they didn't really live back then. I'm confussed! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 06:37:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
Filthy:
Hm. C'88, if I've read your last post correctly, you don't consider Catholics to be 'true Christians'. Why is this? Is not their church almost fanaticly anti-abortion? Do they not worship the same deity, albeit in a somewhat different fashion? Apologies for picking a very minor nit, but I'm honestly curious. I've heard the same from other Christians -- lots of deep-water Baptists around here -- but have never recieved a satisfactory explanation. Perhaps you might want to start a new thread on the subject.
It is much more than just different styles of worship. I did misspeak, though only a little bit. I am not saying there aren't any chritians in the catholic church. But they make so many contridictions to the bible. The bible makes it clear, that to get to heaven, it must not be by works but by faith. Which is why I believe Saddam Hussain could go to heaven if he believed in god even for the last two seconds of his life. The catholic church is all about, do enough good things and you will go to heaven. The bible also clearly states there is only ONE mediator between God and man. And that is Jesus Christ the Son. While the catholic church still prays to saints, because they are "closer to god". And for the person who asked me "who am I to judge". I am nobody to judge. The bible is. And thats what I go by.
This should really go into a new thread. I think it would be a most interesting discussion. The various sects (is 'sects' the proper term?) of the Christian Church are widely and wildly diverse. As an atheist, I find myself somewhat bemused by it all and would like to gain an insite.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 09:42:42 [Permalink]
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| I have created a new topic in the Religion folder "Differing Christan doctrine" |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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