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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2003 : 13:50:38 [Permalink]
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Getting back to the topic, this was in the Melbourne paper this Sunday Morning. Thought y'all might find it an interesting read.
'Smile' in the womb fires abortion row
It has the pro lifers pissing themselves with joy, using words such as "massacre" to make it seem like a woman who terminates a pregnancy should be up there with Saddam Hussein, but as one doctor said
quote:
"I think they are clutching at straws," he said. "No doubt it will be picked up by those groups that use anything and everything to stop terminations but ignore the fact that women have a right to choice."
I still have to agree with him
Intersting article though.... |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 16:04:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
SNAKE:
Adam and Eve were the 1st people on Earth and the world is only 6,000 years old. Right? So the people who lived before (excuse me), their supposed documented existance from several thousand years before the bible, don't have to worry about being in Hell because they didn't really live back then. I'm confussed!
quote:
If you would actualy read the history that we have of Adam and Eve. You would know that they talked directly to god. Therefore they didn't need a bible. They could go directly to the source. As for documentation, Moses wrote Genesis. He was a prophet. He could speak directly to god also. God remembers quite well:).
Murder, rape, and torture all your life, then repent on your deathbed - spend eternity in bliss.
Live an exemplary life of goodness and kindness, constantly sacrificing for the betterment of your fellows, but don't believe in the Christian God - spend eternity being tortured.
That's the kind of religious thought that leads the overzealous to believe that murder is moral because they've "accepted Jesus into their heart". It also encompasses the concept that anyone who has not "accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior" will burn in hell, thus condemning all babies who die from disease or accident before they are old enough to understand the simplest of religious thoughts to an eternity of torture. Think what you will about abortion, but torturing innocent babies for eternity is a greater evil.
- Henry
As scary as you make it sound... yes. If Saddam, or McVeigh or Bin Laden, repnted or repent before there deaths they will go to heaven. Thats what I believe. As for you saying "that leads to the overzealous thinking murder is moral". NO!!!! If they are real christians they follow the doctrines of the bible which include, "Thou shall not murder". And I don't claim to know what happens to a baby when they die. You brought that up your self assuming that what I thought and you were flat out wrong. But I do know our god is fair.
Bringing up a new subject. I don't believe there is such thing as a small sin. I believe that in god's eyes that at least in a sense a llie is as bad as murder. It would be funny if it wasn't such a serious issue, how so many people would say "how could anyone do this" to a murder. And then maybe that same night go out and have careless sex. So think about it if you are willing to go out and have sex out of wed-lock, and feel no guilt against god. Then don't blame god for murders. Because what you just did was just as much an offense against god. I heard WAY to many people at 9/11. "How could god let this happen?", or "what kind of god would let this happen"?
Well we have been telling him for years to get outof our schools, our court room, our lives. Maybe if we all had believed in and loved him. It wouldn't have happened. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 16:07:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
It is much more than just different styles of worship. I did misspeak, though only a little bit. I am not saying there aren't any chritians in the catholic church. But they make so many contridictions to the bible. The bible makes it clear, that to get to heaven, it must not be by works but by faith. Which is why I believe Saddam Hussain could go to heaven if he believed in god even for the last two seconds of his life. The catholic church is all about, do enough good things and you will go to heaven. The bible also clearly states there is only ONE mediator between God and man. And that is Jesus Christ the Son. While the catholic church still prays to saints, because they are "closer to god". And for the person who asked me "who am I to judge". I am nobody to judge. The bible is. And thats what I go by.
Neither Mormons nor Jehova's witness pray to saints. Are they true christians? If not, then why not?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 19:14:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
SNAKE:
Adam and Eve were the 1st people on Earth and the world is only 6,000 years old. Right? So the people who lived before (excuse me), their supposed documented existance from several thousand years before the bible, don't have to worry about being in Hell because they didn't really live back then. I'm confussed!
(Fixed the quoting here - Henry)
If you would actualy read the history that we have of Adam and Eve. You would know that they talked directly to god. Therefore they didn't need a bible. They could go directly to the source. As for documentation, Moses wrote Genesis. He was a prophet. He could speak directly to god also. God remembers quite well:).
There is no history of Adam and Eve. That story in the Bible is a myth. There's no evidence that Moses wrote Genesis either. In fact, Moses is an Egyptian name, not a Hebrew name. Sounds like somebody coopted an Egyptian myth to beef up their own mythology.
quote:
quote:
Henry:
Murder, rape, and torture all your life, then repent on your deathbed - spend eternity in bliss.
Live an exemplary life of goodness and kindness, constantly sacrificing for the betterment of your fellows, but don't believe in the Christian God - spend eternity being tortured.
That's the kind of religious thought that leads the overzealous to believe that murder is moral because they've "accepted Jesus into their heart". It also encompasses the concept that anyone who has not "accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior" will burn in hell, thus condemning all babies who die from disease or accident before they are old enough to understand the simplest of religious thoughts to an eternity of torture. Think what you will about abortion, but torturing innocent babies for eternity is a greater evil.
- Henry
creation88:
As scary as you make it sound... yes. If Saddam, or McVeigh or Bin Laden, repnted or repent before there deaths they will go to heaven. Thats what I believe.
It's not scary, it's immoral to say that it doesn't matter what evil you've committed, if you repent, all is forgiven.
The other side of the coin is that it doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't believe, you are condemned. Ask your pastor what happens to people who die without having accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then ask what happens to good and virtuous people who die without having ever heard of Jesus. (Ignorance of Divine Law is no excuse - you'll just have to burn in hell as an unbeliever.)
I'd bet that if you start asking these kinds of questions, your pastor will want to know who you've been talking to.
quote:
creation88:
As for you saying "that leads to the overzealous thinking murder is moral". NO!!!! If they are real christians they follow the doctrines of the bible which include, "Thou shall not murder".
The doctrines of the bible also include lovely things like mandatory execution by stoning for people caught wearing a mix of plant and animal based clothing. There's lots of Old Testament stories of God commanding the Israelites to commit genocide. Any doctrine you want can be found in the Bible. That's how the Church justified the Crusades or anti-Jewish pogroms. That's how the recently executed murderer justified his actions.
quote:
creation88:
And I don't claim to know what happens to a baby when they die. You brought that up your self assuming that what I thought and you were flat out wrong. But I do know our god is fair.
Your God is not fair. He is a terrible god. He repeatedly orders the Israelites to commit genocide in their occupation of Canaan. This is cannot in any way be considered fair. The Bible is full of 'fear me and obey me' type language.
quote:
creation88:
Bringing up a new subject. I don't believe there is such thing as a small sin. I believe that in god's eyes that at least in a sense a llie is as bad as murder.
Oh? And what do you do if the doorbell rings, and when you answer it you find a man with a shotgun who says, "I'm gonna blow creation88 away. Are you creation88?"
I sincerely hope you would lie. How can this lie be a sin?
quote:
It would be funny if it wasn't such a serious issue, how so many people would say "how could anyone do this" to a murder. And then maybe that same night go out and have careless sex. So think about it if you are willing to go out and have sex out of wed-lock, and feel no guilt against god. Then don't blame god for murders. Because what you just did was just as much an offense against god. I heard WAY to many people at 9/11. "How could god let this happen?", or "what kind of god would let this happen"?
Well we have been telling him for years to get outof our schools, our court room, our lives. Maybe if we all had believed in and loved him. It wouldn't have happened.
Stuff and nonsense. If 9/11 was God punishing us, then was the econmic boom in the late 90's God rewarding us? For what?
Once again, this kind of belief leads right into scapegoating and worse:
- If everyone believed in God, then maybe bad things wouldn't happen.
- Bad things happen because of unbelievers.
- If we get rid of unbelievers, then maybe bad things will stop.
- Hello Inquisition.
Oh, by the way, you are not at all an inconvenience. I wouldn't shoot you if I saw you. Might shoot off my mouth, but that's relatively harmless, and easily escaped. 
- Henry |
- TW
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 19:58:54 [Permalink]
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I too saw the article on the smiling fetus. I only scanned it -- the flu has wrecked what little concentration I can muster. I saw nothing impressive.
Now, if they find a big, fat smirk on a zygote.........
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 20:06:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is no history of Adam and Eve. That story in the Bible is a myth
.
Ok, that's your opinion. What a stupid thing to say. That has about as much impact on me, as it would on you if I said. You are wrong, so there.
quote:
In fact, Moses is an Egyptian name, not a Hebrew name. Sounds like somebody coopted an Egyptian myth to beef up their own mythology.
Ok then theres the fact that Moses, was Egyption. haha, read the first chapter in exodus.
quote:
There's no evidence that Moses wrote Genesis either.
Other than that it says, "Genesis, The First Book of Moses".
quote:
The other side of the coin is that it doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't believe, you are condemned. Ask your pastor what happens to people who die without having accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then ask what happens to good and virtuous people who die without having ever heard of Jesus. (Ignorance of Divine Law is no excuse - you'll just have to burn in hell as an unbeliever.)
I'd bet that if you start asking these kinds of questions, your pastor will want to know who you've been talking to.
I have talked with my pastor about these issues COUNTLESS times. That's right good and virtuous people ,(though I would like to know what you consider good and virtuous) if they have not accepted christ as there god can and will go to hell. Be eternally damned. Spend there life in misery. However you want to say it it's all the same.
quote:
There's lots of Old Testament stories of God commanding the Israelites to commit genocide.
Please instead of ust saying these things, give a passage. So I can actually look it up. So please, find in the Bible, whre this occurs.
quote:
The doctrines of the bible also include lovely things like mandatory execution by stoning for people caught wearing a mix of plant and animal based clothing
.
Where on earth did you get that? I just looked through all of Leviticus.(where all laws and there punishments are found) There was nothing thateven resembled that. And for all the folks that have asked me where it says anything in the Bible about homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22-- You shall not lie with a man as a woman,. It is an abomination. Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male, both of them have commited an abomination...
quote:
Your God is not fair. He is a terrible god. He repeatedly orders the Israelites to commit genocide in their occupation of Canaan. This is cannot in any way be considered fair
The Cannans were evil people. That is like saying, we are commiting genocide against Timothy Mcveigh or Sadaam.
quote:
Oh? And what do you do if the doorbell rings, and when you answer it you find a man with a shotgun who says, "I'm gonna blow creation88 away. Are you creation88?"
I sincerely hope you would lie. How can this lie be a sin?
Yes I would lie in this situation. God makes it clear that if someone breaks into your house or threatens to kill you or anyone you love, then not only do you have the right to lie, but the right to kill them.
quote:
Stuff and nonsense. If 9/11 was God punishing us, then was the econmic boom in the late 90's God rewarding us? For what?
I didn't say it was god punishing us. I think maybe he just sort of stepped back and let things happen. Allowing an "economic boom". But also allowing 3500 people to die. We have been asking him to get out for so long. Maybe he finally did. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 21:54:21 [Permalink]
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Well then I say, good riddance.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 22:36:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Ok, that's your opinion. What a stupid thing to say. That has about as much impact on me, as it would on you if I said. You are wrong, so there.
There's lotsa stuff in the Bible that's backed up by archaeological evidence. Those parts are history. The rest is mythology. In the original Hebrew the word that is usually translated into English as Lord is Elohim, which is a plural form -- gods, not god. A lot of the older parts are myths from an earlier polytheistic religion preserved in an oral tradition until someone wrote them down.
quote:
Other than that it says, "Genesis, The First Book of Moses".
That's not evidence that he wrote it. That's just an attribution. Stylistic analysis of the text shows that there were four or more authors from different periods who wrote down the oral traditions with their own agendas in mind.
quote:
I have talked with my pastor about these issues COUNTLESS times. That's right good and virtuous people ,(though I would like to know what you consider good and virtuous) if they have not accepted christ as there god can and will go to hell. Be eternally damned. Spend there life in misery. However you want to say it it's all the same.
A 1 week old baby cannot comprehend Jesus and so cannot possibly accept him. Therefore if this child dies it will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. It never had a choice.
This is not fair. This is immoral.
quote:
Please instead of ust saying these things, give a passage. So I can actually look it up. So please, find in the Bible, whre this occurs.
Joshua was into genocide:
Joshua 6:17
"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live , she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent."
Joshua 6:21
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
Killing everyone, including the babies and animals, is genocide.
Joshua 10:28-30
"And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain : and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.
Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah:
And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it ; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho."
Group after group that impedes the conquest of Canaan is wiped out. Every man, woman, child, and animal. God doesn't seem to find anything wrong with post-natal abortion.
quote:
quote:
The doctrines of the bible also include lovely things like mandatory execution by stoning for people caught wearing a mix of plant and animal based clothing
.
Where on earth did you get that? I just looked through all of Leviticus.(where all laws and there punishments are found) There was nothing thateven resembled that. And for all the folks that have asked me where it says anything in the Bible about homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22-- You shall not lie with a man as a woman,. It is an abomination. Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male, both of them have commited an abomination...
Either I was mistaken on the punishment or it is covered in a blanket admonition elsewhere, but there is certainly a prohibition against wearing mixed clothing:
Deuteronomy 22:11
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."
quote:
The Cannans were evil people. That is like saying, we are commiting genocide against Timothy Mcveigh or Sadaam.
Methinks their 'evil' consisted of living on the land the Israelites wanted for themselves. The Canaanite babies were certainly not evil babies. The Canaanite preschool age children were too young to be evil.
And how exactly were the Canaanites evil?
quote:
quote:
Oh? And what do you do if the doorbell rings, and when you answer it you find a man with a shotgun who says, "I'm gonna blow creation88 away. Are you creation88?"
I sincerely hope you would lie. How can this lie be a sin?
Yes I would lie in this situation. God makes it clear that if someone breaks into your house or threatens to kill you or anyone you love, then not only do you have the right to lie, but the right to kill them.
OK. Where does it permit this in the Bible?
quote:
quote:
Stuff and nonsense. If 9/11 was God punishing us, then was the econmic boom in the late 90's God rewarding us? For what?
I didn't say it was god punishing us. I think maybe he just sort of stepped back and let things happen. Allowing an "economic boom". But also allowing 3500 people to die. We have been asking him to get out for so long. Maybe he finally did.
I can't quite find the verse in the Bible that says, "For lo, I am a passive-aggressive god and won't lift a finger if you tick me off."
There's a lot of contradictions, absurdities, and errors in the Bible. Most of them are detailed here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
-- Henry
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 04:08:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
There's a lot of contradictions, absurdities, and errors in the Bible. Most of them are detailed here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
So that's how you guys come up with all those Bible quotes on such short notice! And here I thought I was the only ignoramous amidst a murder of Bible scholors.
A couple of months ago. I actually went to the library to borrow a Bible -- used to have one; dunno what happened to it -- so's I could look some stuff up. Damn! That site's almost the same as cheatin'.
Thanks for the link, tw!
Edited: spelling, spelling (sigh)
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/14/2003 04:17:29 |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 15:11:44 [Permalink]
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| There's a very good book about the Old Testament and where it came from, 101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History, that I would recommend to anyone interested in the origin of the Bible. The book was written by Gary Greenberg, the president of the Biblical Archeology Society of New York, so he's not just some flake who decided to write a book. He discusses everything from the Garden of Eden story to the coat of many colors worn by Joseph, and shows how these stories and many others were lifted from societies surrounding Israel. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 15:26:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
There's a lot of contradictions, absurdities, and errors in the Bible. Most of them are detailed here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
I posted my list of Biblical contradictions over at the Ethical Atheist forum. I think it's a better list than others that I've seen, because there are more of them, and because they are categorized for easier reference. Most of the lists I've seen, including the one at SAB, are listed so haphazardly that you have to go through the entire list before you can find the one you're looking for. Very tedious. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 17:05:49 [Permalink]
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This thread seems to have digressed a bit from the original subject, eh? I suppose that is the nature of this kind of debate. Personally, I really don't care what creation88 believes. Except in a political sense. That we have to keep fighting these believers to keep creation science out of our classrooms is annoying as hell. That, however, is where the fight is. Abortion is another such issue. And though I can find no biblical support for the "pro-life" position, it doesn't really matter if there is any. What matters is that we keep our country from being pushed toward a theocracy. This is a political battle, not a theological battle.
I'm still interested in how creation88 figures an egg is a baby at the moment of conception. He dodged that question earlier in this debate. Maybe that's because he knew where I was going with the question. Since he didn't respond, I will presume to answer the question for him. I know I risk building a strawman here but since I have heard this explanation before, from people of faith, I'll risk it. From the moment of conception, they argue, the zygote is infused, by God, with a soul.
At the moment of conception, according to some, something supernatural happens. Something that can't be observed. Something that can't be falsified. It's my opinion that my question was not answered because it removes science, a beating heart, measurable brain waves and such from the explanation. Science is a convenience where it can be invoked but Creation88 knows he can't appeal to science to explain how an egg is a baby at the point of conception. He must call upon his faith in the supernatural.
Since the Bible itself is based on a supernatural claim, from a scientific standpoint, it seems to me, to argue verses that support one view or another makes no sense. If the underpinnings of your world view are based on the assumption that the bible is the word of God and therefor inerrant, your arguments should be with those who share your faith in the supernatural but do not agree on the finer points.
So what does that leave us with? Except for understanding the bible and all that entails, including historical perspective, how it has effected our culture, and to help us understand where it's believers are coming from, understand that this is not a religious war. It may be from the believers perspective, but from ours, it's a political battle.
Fighting to keep pseudo science out of the classroom is one of our goals. Not letting any group hold sway over us by insisting that we make laws consistent with their belief in the supernatural and
whatever doctrine they subscribe to, because of that belief, is the fight we are engaged in. The Bible is incidental. The Koran is incidental. New Age thinking is incidental. If we start basing our laws on any system of thought derived from dictates of a supernatural being (as if we haven't) we are heading for a theocracy.
I would defend creation88s' right to believe whatever he wants to believe. He can try to have the Supreme Court repeal Roe V. Wade. That's OK. His right. But I will be fighting him tooth and nail all the way. This fight for a woman's right to choose is ultimately one of our battles for everyone's religious freedom on an increasingly repressive political battlefield. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 06:51:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
There's a lot of contradictions, absurdities, and errors in the Bible. Most of them are detailed here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
I posted my list of Biblical contradictions over at the Ethical Atheist forum. I think it's a better list than others that I've seen, because there are more of them, and because they are categorized for easier reference. Most of the lists I've seen, including the one at SAB, are listed so haphazardly that you have to go through the entire list before you can find the one you're looking for. Very tedious.
I just browsed some of the points in ethicalatheist, and my first impression is that they have indiscriminately picked out contradictions, without taking into account Jesus new covenant.
Relevant example:
quote:
10. Does God want children to die?
Yes: Gen 7:21-22,19:24,22:2; Ex 12:30,21:15; Lev 20:9; Dt 21:18-21,20:16; Jos 10:40; 1 Sam 15:2-3; 2 Sam 12:15,18; 2 Kng 2:23-24; Jer 13:13-14,19:9; Ps 135:8,136:10, 137:9; Ezk 5:10; Hos 9:16,13:16; Zech 13:3
No: Mt 18:14
There is no affirmative reference in the New Testament, this because Jesus changed the rules. If you look on the bible with the perspective that the authors of the old testament weren't aware of the extent of the change that Jesus was to bring, there will be lot's of references that will not correlate correctly to the NT (and I guess that's probably what Bible-thumpers will claim). So, I'm afraid there may be many more of these, kind of irrelevant, points in that list. It can easily happen when you are just indexing the bible, without actually paying attention it's contents.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 07:29:31 [Permalink]
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Back to the original post...
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong. Brain waves and a heart beat before the age of three months. It's the same thing as saying that someone on life support is dead because there not breathing for themselves.
I friend of mine gave birth to a son during the sixth month of her pregnancy. The baby was on life support the first few months, and even then it had several crises where it almost died. Another few crises before it's first birthday, but thanks to very competent doctors, and state of the art medical facilities, they pulled through.
What is the point of me telling you this true story?
quote:
It's the same thing as saying that someone on life support is dead because there not breathing for themselves.
Without expertise and state of the art equipment it won't matter if you put a 6 month foetus in life support. It will die anyway. This renders your simile of life support invalid for our discussion, at least until six months after conception. At that point I agree with you that an abortion would be immoral, that is, at the point when the foetus/child can survive on life support without it's mother.
That means I'm ok with a woman's choice of having an abortion until the end of the second trimester.
Hey, did you realize, this is even more cause for me to consider myself pro-life!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/15/2003 07:30:42 |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 10:10:07 [Permalink]
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Dr Mabuse, what if the situation is this.
You and your wife want your first baby. Do everything right. All the prenatals and everything. But in the 8th month some medical professional actually looks at the ultrasound and discovers your child has no legs, no hands, no eyes and likely severe brain damage. Otherwise your child is healthy?!?
You have a couple of choices.
1- You go ahead with the pregancy. At birth, the medical-industrial complex takes control of your child and spends all your lifetime medical benefits plus your lifetime savings. Your child may live to be 5 or 6 at the most or it may died within days or it may live as a vegtable for 25-30 or more years. You are now broke and cannot afford additional children. You have lost your family.
2- You choose to terminate the pregancy to protect your future family, financially and medically. However, this is a now third trimester termination and no one will touch you with a ten foot pole. You have options to travel to Europe or across the country to an understanding doctor (who was shot in the chest just 4 months prior). The procedure is not simple, and in order to preserve the mothers ability to conceive again the only option was a technique some zealots call "partial birth abortion" It takes 6 days to complete the procedure and protect the mother.
What is your ethical choice? Who has the right to challenge your choice? And on what grounds do they have to assert that challenge? Which choice is the most family friendly? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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