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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2003 : 22:50:23 [Permalink]
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Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else like DA has been trying to learn 733t sp33|< in the last few months?
darwin alogos wrote:quote:
Well 4 beginners do u KNOW WHAT CAN AND AND CAN'T HAPPEN IN THIS UNIVERSE APRIORI OR R U JUST GUESSING?
Seems to me that you, in your prior posts, have made many statements about what can or cannot happen in the universe. Did you know, a priori, or were you just guessing? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 00:27:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
OUOOPS I FORGOT HOW 2 WORK THE RESPOND BUTTONSOriginally posted by darwin alogos
How 2 b skeptic apologist just DENY everything u don't think could happen. A really openminded way 2 look at life.
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What is a "skeptic apologist"?
Your statement is just as illogical as your signature.
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Well 4 beginners do u KNOW WHAT CAN AND AND CAN'T HAPPEN IN THIS UNIVERSE APRIORI OR R U JUST GUESSING?
That does "apriori" mean? I'm not an English native speaker, but "apriori" sounds more like Italian to me, which I know even less.
What is a "skeptic apologist"? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 03:20:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else like DA has been trying to learn 733t sp33|< in the last few months?
darwin alogos wrote:[quote]Well 4 beginners do u KNOW WHAT CAN AND AND CAN'T HAPPEN IN THIS UNIVERSE APRIORI OR R U JUST GUESSING?
He seems prone to shouting too.
About "733t sp33|<", what's the point of answering such posts? I do not care to devote a lot of extra time trying to decode it when the writer could simply avoid it. It's just rude. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/16/2003 03:21:21 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 04:49:51 [Permalink]
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filthy:DA, why should I not doubt? I recieve outrageous, to me at least, claims backed by nothing but a single text offering little, if any, empirical evidence. I'm given fantastic stories of impossible floods, dragons, magic, manna and mayhem, divine death and resurection, and expected to buy the car outright, without having a good mechanic check out the mill, tranny, and suspension.
I sympathize with your questions (and I'm not going 2 recomend that you "gotta have faith brother"),for starters lets just leave the "outrageous" elements 4 later and concentrate on the historical issues.This inquiry is like taking the "new car" your interested in to the mechanic.Unfortionatly I've got 2 go "I'll be back" |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 05:00:41 [Permalink]
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Hmm. We seem to have gone from satire to Skeptical Apologetics? Whaddafuck is that?
As a skeptic, I make no firm commitments until I've reviewed the facts and fictions of the subject. Evidence is required, and shouting and hand-waving, and convoluted quotations from an ancient text are not acceptable as such.
The ToE, for example. The facts and fictions surrounding it are all but boundless, yet, from the empirical evidence, the fictions simply fail to hold up. Find me the Devonian Bunny, or it's equivelent, and I'll happily change my mind. But would that ledgendary lagomorph prove that some Goddidit? Perhaps, but not neccessarly. It will only demonstrate that there are other forces at work, and the universe is an even stranger place than we thought.
The more we learn about the universe, the more we learn just how strange it is -- a mere Devonian Bunny, while exciting to us, wouldn't mean much from a cosmic point of view. For example; I'm forever hearing about how unlikely something like abiogenesis is. The chances of it happening are infintesimal, so I'm told ad nauseam. But it seems to me, from my reading, that long odds don't mean a hell of a lot to the universe. Indeed, it almost seems that there is only one Law of the Universe: Murphy's!
"If it can happen, it most certainly will, and probably already has."
(This last is part of the basic philosophy behind the Infinent Improbablity Drive. It is best not to dwell upon Infinent Improbabilty Theory until you are at least half way through your second Pan-Galactic Gargle-Blaster, at which point, it really won't matter.)
Apologies to Douglas Adams.
edited to fix certain, early-morning mistakes, mispelling, and miscues. Are ya happy, Dave?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/16/2003 09:04:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 15:42:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
That does "apriori" mean? I'm not an English native speaker, but "apriori" sounds more like Italian to me, which I know even less.
Sorry this is off topic, but I thought it was only us stupid Americans who couldn't speak Italian, French, German, Swedish, Cantonese, Swahili, etc.?  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 03:06:09 [Permalink]
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a priori
SYLLABICATION: a pri·o·ri
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: ä pr-ôr, -r, pr-ôr, -r KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Proceeding from a known or assumed cause to a necessarily related effect; deductive.
2a. Derived by or designating the process of reasoning without reference to particular facts or experience. b. Knowable without appeal to particular experience.
3. Made before or without examination; not supported by factual study.
ETYMOLOGY: Medieval Latin prir : Latin , from + Latin prir, ablative of prior, former. Good guess Dr. M
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 11/17/2003 04:23:42 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 04:22:28 [Permalink]
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[ b] filthy p.1: quote:
DA, why should I not doubt? I recieve outrageous, to me at least, claims backed by nothing but a single text offering little, if any, empirical evidence.
filthy p.2: quote:
The more we learn about the universe, the more we learn just how strange it is -- a mere Devonian Bunny, while exciting to us, wouldn't mean much from a cosmic point of view. For example; I'm forever hearing about how unlikely something like abiogenesis is. The chances of it happening are infintesimal, so I'm told ad nauseam. But it seems to me, from my reading, that long odds don't mean a hell of a lot to the universe. Indeed, it almost seems that there is only one Law of the Universe: Murphy's!
"If it can happen, it most certainly will, and probably already has."
So according to filthy p.1 the written testimony of 12 strict montheistic Jews who claimed that the deity they had worshiped had "walked among us" in the person of Jesus and they based that claim on their own empirical existenial encounter with him after he was pronouced dead[/b] is to "outrageoues"? However, according to filthy p.2 not only can anything "happen" but it "most certianly will "? So which is it filthy is your faith in a willy nilly universe or are you committed to using your reason and vaildating truthclaims with empirical evidence? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 11/17/2003 04:53:18 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 08:32:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Computer Org wrote:quote:
I was once accused on this board of being a "Christian apologist" and asked what was.
Actually, no, your memory is faulty. I compared your speculations about what might have been had Thurmond been President to Christian Apologetics in your Strom Thurmond thread. But I never accused you of being a Christian Apologist.quote:
(Don't feel alone, Dr. M. I've spoken English all my life and STILL....) No one every explained an understandable meaning of the term to me.
Well, "How to be a Bible Apologist," even though it is satire, should give one a fairly good idea of what Fundamentalist Apologetics is all about, from the viewpoint of a skeptic. It's not a good guide to Christian Apologetics in general, since most of it is much more mild than the Fundementalist version.
You're absolutely right. Sorry. Actually I was about to type "...was once called some kind of an apologist..." but, at the last minute, switched it to "Christian apologist" to be more specific.
Thanks, though. I'm starting to get a handle on the notion of "apologetics".
I don't, however, feel as if I am a "Thurmond apologist"; his career was glorious, nearly-impecable (IMO) and stands fully on its own merits. Not only do I NOT find a hint of racism, I believe that Strom Thurmond was a major force for anti-racism.
Where is your skepticism? Can't you smell the stench of a mere -- but grubby -- political ploy to get rid of the Senior Senator from Mississippi (--whose name I seem to have forgotten)? |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 09:08:44 [Permalink]
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| I believe you're thinking of Senator Trent Lott. Not Lot, whose wife became a pillar of salt. Rather, Lott, who became a pillar of partisan pomposity. |
Paladin |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 09:19:57 [Permalink]
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Ah, so I am to take the word of 12, strict but long dead, monotheiestic Jews? Each with their own strengths and weaknesses, fears, and desires, doubts and delusions? What makes you think that they were any different from the rest of us?
This is the old 'eye-witness' argument used a lot by Jonathon Sarfati, especally when frothing about the so-called Noachan Flood, the fact that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable -- ask any cop or DA after they've had a couple of beers -- not withstanding.
Willy-nilly universe? Your words, not mine. I have merely stated that the universe is a strange place and the more we discover, the stranger it becomes. I did not say that it was disorganized, nor do I believe it is disorganized. I simply said that we don't know a lot about it, yet. Perhaps we never will. You seem to accuse me of having faith in something I know ltttle about. Well, I guess that's the way faith works: You don't need to know if you gots faith. 
But, let's quit the silly word games -- I am not good at them -- and cut to the chase.
Did Jesus exist? This is what you're leading up to, is it not? I have no firm reason to doubt it. I have no reason to doubt that there were more than a few itinerent rabbis wandering the area at the time, some of them quite insane, as some preachers and most cult leaders are today. I further can accept that he had 12, devoted followers, brave and true. I can also accept that he got rail-roaded up on the original Roman candle. Some, indeed much of this is comfirmed by documents of the times other than the Bible, therefore, it is as much history as religion. What I do not accept is the Son of God myth. Before I buy that clunker, I must first have some evidence for, A( God(s)'s very existance, and B( that He was so involved with a certain element of the population of our wayward, little mudball that he concieved a child with a human woman (inter-species adultry?!) who gave virgin birth to a child for which nothing is known of all but a short time of it's life; and who ultimantly ran afoul of the law and died for all of our sins; and I've yet to see/hear a satisfactory explanation for that final cannonball. All I've ever gotten is a lot of metaphysical bullshit (not to mention a few personal attacks) which fails to inspire any faith at all.
"Ok filthy, you rotton, heretical, Hell-bound scab off a bastard's ass, dig this: Everybody has to have faith in something!"
Yeah buddy! Even I. Faith born of experience.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 10:06:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Well, to begin with: do you KNOW WHAT CAN AND AND CAN'T HAPPEN IN THIS UNIVERSE (Knowable without appeal to particular experience.) OR R U JUST GUESSING?
What can and can not happen in the universe is pretty much determined already through experiments. Science tells us these things.
If you let go of an apple, it falls to the ground. Science has explained that it is a basic property of the universe.
The same science explains why the Earth orbits the sun, and not the sun orbiting the Earth.
Thermodynamics explains how and why a steam engine works.
It is possible for a golf ball to "tunnel" through a brick wall unharmed. It is possible, but extremely unlikely. Quantum mechanics tells us how this is possible, but also why it is unlikely.
By studying science I can with very good confidence say that I'm not guessing. I can say that I pretty accuratly can deduce if a described event is possible or not possible, from a human perspective. And I'm confident, and not afraid of the fact that in some cases my truthfulness demands answer to be "I don't know. But I would like to know." |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/18/2003 08:34:35 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 17:33:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
filthy:This is the old 'eye-witness' argument used a lot by Jonathon Sarfati, especally when frothing about the so-called Noachan Flood, the fact that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable -- ask any cop or DA after they've had a couple of beers -- not withstanding.
I haven't a clue who Jonathon Sarfiti is????? As far as eye-witness being unreliable and asking a cop I'm sure ,given their line of work and the traumatic events they respond to they definitly have some tales to tell.However, there are two major fallacys with your analogy.First,cop's beer tails notwithstanding,our intire legal system is built around the validty of "eye-witness" testimony as well as our understanding of any historical events before moderen recording devices.The fact that some are inaccurate does not justfy destroying the whole,or else we are left with legal pandamoniun at best or tyrany at worst(let Big Brother decide who's guilty or not).Secondly, concerning the testimony of the 12 disciples who knew Jesus we are not talking about trival info that your beered up cop may be sharing,such as "the lady said the green car swerved in front of the red one ect...."but someone they knew for three years and knew that he had died earlier was now very much alive and that they had seen him and touched his wounds ate bread with him,thats not the same as your saying about the unreliability of eye witness testimony.These are earth shaking events that would burn the facts into their minds(on a similair note I remember very clearly what I was doing when John Lennon was shot 12-8-1980 as though it just happened).When,and I hope you do take the time to read the accounts yourself and not trust secondhand sources found here,we do read them they speak of the same confidence of having experienced such worldview changing events.Thats all for now gotta go,peace(deleted the word "who"). |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 11/18/2003 10:39:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 10:44:33 [Permalink]
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| Really not much reason to think Jesus of Nazareth existed at all. No contemporary non-Christian accounts, lots of evidence that people like to make up stories. Might have existed, sure, but must not have done much if he did exist to not warrant anyone's attention at the time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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