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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2003 : 04:53:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:Really not much reason to think Jesus of Nazareth existed at all. No contemporary non-Christian accounts, lots of evidence that people like to make up stories. Might have existed, sure, but must not have done much if he did exist to not warrant anyone's attention at the time.
http://www.shoutingman.com/bible/ntrely/ That cite for starters.Do you have any evidence that the NT isn't a reliable historical document or are you just assuming it isn't on blind faith ? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 11/19/2003 04:55:46 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 12:49:05 [Permalink]
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Jonathon Sarfati is one of the big guns at Answers In Genesis. He's out of Australia, and often can be found at TheologyWeb, holding forth under the handle of Socratse. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of him. He's very well known, and I‘ll refrain from further comment.
It is true that our courts rely heavily upon eyeball testimony, but it is also true that a fair percentage of that testimony is little more than what the bull left in the meadow due to natural human error. Mostly, we see what we want to see. And often what a witness ‘sees' might soon be influenced by interviews with the legal establishment, pro and con. And often, that witness might have his own axe to grind. Sad, but true.
As for our 12 Disciples, well, eleven and one rotten, little snitch, they were Homo sapiens sapiens, were they not?
Before we can examine the stories and questions of Jesus and his miracles, resurrection and so forth, we first need to establish the existence of God. Without that, the whole thing becomes yet more myth and ledgend, and thus far, I have yet to see that establishment made. Indeed, I have yet to see any genuine magic of any sort (that's what all of this is, after all. Magic). Of course, I've heard a lot about magical miracles -- bleeding priests and statues, and the like -- but we all know what hearsay and anecdotes are worth as evidence.
I don't have any figures to back this up, but, from my reading, it seems to take something like two to five years to get a really good start on forming a successful cult. And the boys were with Jesus for three, which is in the ball park. Was Christianity a cult in the days of it‘s beginning? Of course it was, as were all religions at their founding. Some say that it still is.
Another remarkable thing about Jesus that I've never seen discussed is that he seems to have virtually no history before the gang got together. The authors of the New Testament, and their myriad of later editors, could have had a much better story had they spent a little time on the early years.
All of which puts us right back where we started.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 13:30:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
http://www.shoutingman.com/bible/ntrely/ That cite for starters.Do you have any evidence that the NT isn't a reliable historical document or are you just assuming it isn't on blind faith ?
Blind faith is accepting that's on that site you linked to.
quote:
Internal Evidence : It claims reliability
A reliable source will claim reliability, and will be self-consistent
The gospels and its authors claim to be telling the truth
Are you kidding me? Using the Bible to prove that the Bible is not fiction is circular reasoning.
quote:
Men do not die to protect a lie they know to be false — you lie to make life easier
And people can not be decieved to die for a lie? What about the Jonestown Massacre?
This is just a stupid argument that has not been validated by psychologists.
Let's move on to historical aspects:
quote:
Archaeological discoveries (including census form from 104 AD) show the Romans had a regular enrollment of taxpayers, and held censuses every 14 years and corroborate the birth narrative (Luke 2:1)
Evidence that Quirinius was governor of Syria ~7 BC (Luke 2:2)
In the movie "From Hell" we see actor Ian Holm as Jack the Ripper. This does not mean that the story is true and the Queen's court's personal physician was responsible of the death of those prostitutes, even though there are several historically verifiable facts in that movie.
Just because the author decides to make references to historical events does not prove that the story he was writing was anything but fiction.
We are told that we should trust manuscripts that were written ~120AD. That's at least three generations removed from the people said to have participated in the events. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 19:50:15 [Permalink]
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Found in New Testament Historical Reliability:quote:
The authors died because they professed these accounts
All of them?quote:
People will die for things they believe to be true and beneficial: power, ideas, leaders
"Believe" being the operative word.quote:
Men do not die to protect a lie they know to be false — you lie to make life easier
And what if they believe a lie to be "true and beneficial"?quote:
Peter likely died during Nero-ian persecution
"Likely"?quote:
Paul suffered & died because of Nero (read 2 Tim 2:8-9)
Ah, using the Bible to support the Bible. Anyway, 2 Tim 2:8-9 reads, "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained." So he's not been killed, just chained up. This is evidence that Paul died because of Nero?quote:
James, brother of Jesus, was stoned by the Sanhedrin 5
Okay, fine.
What do we have? "Likely," suffering, and a dead James. Who wrote Matthew, Luke, Mark and John? According to Who Wrote the Bible? (Part 4), except for Paul, most of the authors are unknown (and whether Timothy is, as written, by Paul is "suspect," making his suffering suspect, as well). And, we're given this:quote:
The letter of James isn't anonymous, but it's not known who exactly James was. Five people named James are mentioned in the New Testament, one of whom was the brother of Jesus. It's this person whom tradition has accepted as the author, although the evidence is sketchy.
Thus, that any of the authors of the New Testament actually died "because they professed these accounts" appears to not be very well supported.
Hey, how did Moses die?
As an aside, the "Did Jesus really exist" threads went on and on here already. The "tests" for reliability of historic texts are easily "passed" by historic fiction. Lovecraft-genre books written shortly after Lovecraft died would probably pass the tests, given the conditions under which they were written. The Bible is not a good resource with which to determine the accuracy of any event not written about in other sources. According to the "External Evidence" presented in "New Testament Historical Reliability," there doesn't appear to be a single contemporary non-Biblical account of any of the miracles Jesus supposedly accomplished. And bishops "affirming" the Gospels seems less than satisfactory on an evidenciary basis, and would probably get thrown out of a court of law as biased hearsay (court being the standard DA is asking us to go by, even though courts aren't science). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 04:34:27 [Permalink]
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| There are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of Jesus period. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 03:15:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
There are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of Jesus period.
Are there any contemporary Christian accounts of Jesus? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 03:30:49 [Permalink]
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| Not that I know of, but the safest statement that I can make, made without any reference to Bible scholars, is that there are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of the life of Jesus of Nazareth. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2003 : 21:38:37 [Permalink]
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Gorgo: quote:
There are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of Jesus period.
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 01:02:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Gorgo: quote:
There are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of Jesus period.
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand.
SYNTAX ERROR...
I'm sorry but my English decoding capabilities only extends so far.
Could you please rephrase your statement (possibly expand on them)?
("How many non-biast history of evolution???? [SIC]") |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/24/2003 05:57:17 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 04:33:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Do you have any evidence that the NT isn't a reliable historical document or are you just assuming it isn't on blind faith ?
When do you pretend the Exodus occurred? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 07:16:00 [Permalink]
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creation88 wrote:quote:
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand.
We're not talking about bias, though. We're talking about any accounts of Jesus' actions during his lifetime.
There aren't any documents - from any source - which say (for example), "well, this person named Jesus came around yesterday, and turned water into wine." There aren't any Roman governmental reports of the crimes Jesus committed, for which he was allegedly crucified.
The earliest references to Jesus anywhere appear to have been written 5-10 years after his supposed death, and are nothing but "Jesus, save me" kinds of inscriptions, and not accounts of his life.
Evolution, on the other hand, we can see and test today. Even you, with your strong anti-evolution 'bias' could test it, even though you would most likely disagree with what the results mean. We're not supposed to test God or Jesus (even if we could), and Jesus appears to have been invisible to the people of his time.
Even Cecil Adams couldn't come up with anything decent on the subject. He claims that, "40 years is too short a time for an entirely mythical Christ to have been fabricated out of (heh-heh) whole cloth," but doesn't support this assertion at all (how long would have been long enough?). Plus, he says that that would be the case "barring an actual conspiracy," but doesn't say why an "actual conspiracy" should be dismissed out of hand.
Cecil also says, "Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century," which appears to coincide with the age at which the Church began to lose its power to burn heretics at the stake - in other words, it should have been expected for doubts to be squashed prior to the 1700s. Instead, we are presented with a lack of earlier doubters as evidence for the existence of Jesus.
Cecil concludes with: "In short, whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody." Considering what this conclusion is based on, "probably" seems to be far too generous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 08:48:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand.
Erm, it'd depend upon what your definittion of 'bias' is. If you see careful research into natural phenomena as bias, then you are quite correct. Science is indeed biased.
If, on the other hand, you see critisims of that research, based upon virtually no physical evidence, as as solid Truth, then you yourself are the biased party. But again, you are correct -- science is still biased.
And if, on the gripping hand, you define 'bias' as the works of anyone who fails to agree with you, you will come across a lot of biased people on your road through life. But, you may take comfort in the thought that you are yet again and will remain correct -- science will always be biased in favor of theories supported by fact.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 11:47:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Gorgo: quote:
There are no contemporary non-Christian accounts of Jesus period.
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand.
SYNTAX ERROR...
I'm sorry but my English decoding capabilities only extends so far.
Could you please rephrase your statement (possibly expand on them)?
("How many non-biast history of evolution???? [SIC]")
non-biast = non-biased
C88 has a problem. He seems to be attacking the lack of non-Christian accounts of Jesus with an intimation that no text advocating evolution has a history that is not biased. I would say, though that Jesus appears in a non-Christian religious document. That being the Qu'ran in which Jesus is referred to as Isa. It's inclusion in a religious document does not give it any special relevance. That it is included in two seperate religions lends credence that the story of Jesus/Isa was not unique. What is unique is the acceptance of Jesus as a messiah by Christians.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 14:53:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Hmmmm...... How many non-biast history of evolution???? Let's see I can count them on less than one hand.
How many is "less than one hand"? You mean your toes, maybe? |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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