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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  10:43:46  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception. We could argue for days and never come to anthing. It's just a matter of opinion. BUT.....say theres even a one in a hundred chance that it really is a living person. Is it worth the risk? If your standing in front of one person and ninty nine crash test dummies. You can't see a difference between them, and you have to choose one of them to shoot. Would you take the chance? It would make your life easier if you shoot one. But you will live your whole life not quite sure if you had shot the one real person.

And this is one in a hundred. And the chances are alot better than that for a baby living at conception.

And before I go....all I have heard on here about Bush, is how useless going into Iraq has been. But as you all know, Sadaam Hussain was captured Sunday morning. And if you can honestly say we would have been better off staying here in the u.s, and have Sadaam still killing athletes because they lose, and killing his nephew because.......I guess he felt like it. Your just nuts if you don't think it's been a HUGE success.

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  12:37:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Iraq: Attacking the people of Iraq for the last dozen or so years is a crime. That crime is not made better by capturing one person who has outlived his usefulness to the criminals-in-charge in Washington.

Abortion: We have to draw the line somewhere, and to protect the rights of women, we've drawn it before birth. It's not shooting at crash test dummies. It's about the rights of those that are already born vs the rights of those that haven't. I choose those that have been born.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend

USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  12:51:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Sea Sorbust a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88

OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception. We could argue for days and never come to anthing. It's just a matter of opinion.

What kind of idiot statement is this? Of course! it's a human just after the moment of conception. A human baby, no matter what it looks like.

Gorgo has it right: You have to draw the line somewhere and we Americans have decided that it is alright to kill a baby if the baby is young enough. End of subject; the decision had to be made and we made it through legislation and judicial edict.

The government of Iraq killing the people of Iraq is a crime, Gorgo? Against whose law? When did Iraq become the 51st state? Must have missed something. Must quickly go count stars on nearst flag.

All this has nothing to do with the utterly necessary colonization of Mars though, so I'll just mosey on to another thread.

"This is the forest primeval...."
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  12:56:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88

OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception. We could argue for days and never come to anthing. It's just a matter of opinion. BUT.....say theres even a one in a hundred chance that it really is a living person. Is it worth the risk? If your standing in front of one person and ninty nine crash test dummies. You can't see a difference between them, and you have to choose one of them to shoot. Would you take the chance? It would make your life easier if you shoot one. But you will live your whole life not quite sure if you had shot the one real person.

And this is one in a hundred. And the chances are alot better than that for a baby living at conception.

And before I go....all I have heard on here about Bush, is how useless going into Iraq has been. But as you all know, Sadaam Hussain was captured Sunday morning. And if you can honestly say we would have been better off staying here in the u.s, and have Sadaam still killing athletes because they lose, and killing his nephew because.......I guess he felt like it. Your just nuts if you don't think it's been a HUGE success.



Abortion: If you don't like it, don't have one. Your opinion is duely noted. We disagree. Appeals to consequences is not logically valid.

Iraq: He was a threat to Iraq, not the US. Please show where he was a threat to the US. We claimed imminent danger when we attacked. Iraq is better off without Hussein, but the ends never justify the means. Is the world safer with this administration acting like a bully? No. In fact, it greatly diminishes US credibility.

Just to keep you up to date on the WMD search.

Aluminum tubes for nuclear program: found to be unsuitable for the task and actually fit the specifications for an Italian shoulder mounted missile system which was not illegal under 1441.
Missiles of impermissible range: found 10 from a program which was being dismantled at the UN insistance.
Biological weapons: one vial of botulium found. AKA Botox.
Chemical weapons: found empty shells. No chemical weapons have been found to date.
Mobile Chemical Labs: Inspected by UNSCOM. Actually mobile food testing labs.
Nuclear program equipment: one centrifuge found. Buried in 1991 as part of a dismantling process. Indicates an inactive program.
Documentation: Geee, they had these programs pre-1991. Why is it surprising to find this stuff?
Link to Al-Queda: administration had to back off this stance post invasion due to compelling evidence that no such link existed. Bin Laden made multiple assassination attempts against Hussein.

UNSCOM reports and other compelling intelligence was available pre-invasion to indicate that the administration's claims were bullshit. Bush acted unilaterally anyway.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  13:00:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by creation88

OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception. We could argue for days and never come to anthing. It's just a matter of opinion.

What kind of idiot statement is this? Of course! it's a human just after the moment of conception. A human baby, no matter what it looks like.

Gorgo has it right: You have to draw the line somewhere and we Americans have decided that it is alright to kill a baby if the baby is young enough. End of subject; the decision had to be made and we made it through legislation and judicial edict.

The government of Iraq killing the people of Iraq is a crime, Gorgo? Against whose law? When did Iraq become the 51st state? Must have missed something. Must quickly go count stars on nearst flag.

All this has nothing to do with the utterly necessary colonization of Mars though, so I'll just mosey on to another thread.



I believe that Gorgo is referring to periodic US led air strikes since 1991 in addition to the invasion. I don't believe that he is referring to the actions of Hussein.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 12/16/2003 13:01:08
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend

Canada
65 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  13:02:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Maglev's Homepage  Send Maglev an ICQ Message Send Maglev a Private Message
WARNING: Let it be known that I'm in a uber-sarcastic mood today;

Oh dear c88... I will attempt to read in other skeptics' minds using my Psychic Powers (or my Direct Line to God, whoever answers first):

I sense the following reponses from fellow skeptics:

quote:
OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception.


"Of course not! That you could change your mind scares you. So of course you wont."
"Of course not! You already have an opinion which was given to you by a higher power. Who are you to argue with that higher power?"
"Dogma bound people dont argue. They have The Thruth(tm). Why would they question The Thruth(tm)?"

quote:
BUT.....say theres even a one in a hundred chance that it really is a living person. Is it worth the risk?


"Say your preacher tells you to jump of a bridge to meet God, would you take that chance? Even if there's one in a hundred chance that will meet you maker?"
"Do you own a gun c88? If there's one chance out of a hundred that your (futur) kid finds it and shots him/herself with it, would you still keep it? Would you take that chance?"

But seriously...

I've left out most of what is obvious; you're not asking this question in order to gain knowledge (heck, you're not even really asking a question, are you?), you obviously dont know what pro-choice people stand for, etc, etc. I'll leave these to more knowlegable/articulate people.

But PLEASE c88, DO reply to what people have to say, dont let my human failings (today its sarcasm) stand in the way of what could be an interesting thread...

Maglev

"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology.
Edited by - Maglev on 12/16/2003 13:14:18
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  13:10:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Yes, the original Gulf War, the sanctions, the seemingly incessant bombings, and now this attack which is blatantly criminal.

quote:

I believe that Gorgo is referring to periodic US led air strikes since 1991 in addition to the invasion. I don't believe that he is referring to the actions of Hussein.



I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  13:45:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
Perhaps you haven't noticed, because you've been too busy lapping it up as The Word, how the Bush regime's rationale for the war has changed moment to moment, as they desperately grasp for something that doesn't stink of aggression and imperial fantasies.

They never mentioned deposing Hussein for the sake of the Iraqi people when they were trying to sell their predetermined policy of war as a rational response to events- no, back then it was either "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and could attack the US at any moment!" or "Saddam is in league with Al Qaeda and they could attack the US at any moment!"

When they got their war and not a shred of evidence turned up in support of their previous claims, when it became apparent that they had determined on starting a war as a matter of policy and snatched up anything that might serve as a pretext, even crude fabrications, the Party Line changed to "We're going to democratize Iraq!" or "Saddam was so awful that anything we do must be justified!"

They're rather lucky that the @#$%wad turned up in that hole. Otherwise they would soon have been down to the mother of all ad hoc excuses- "The dog ate our homework!"- or perhaps "the dog ate our evidence!".

We've lost an awful lot of stature (a quality which is not measured by the power to kill and destroy) in the world, along with much of our system of checks and balances and our liberty (under the Bush regime's claims of unlimited power to imprison anyone they choose as a matter of administrative fiat, American citizens occupy exactly the same legal position as did the inhabitants of the totalitarian states of the '30s) for the sake of a lot of frustrated think-tankers who can't see any way of relating to the world save to try to bully it, and for the sake of lining the pockets of Bush cronies.

To try to claim that the whole sordid scheme is a "success" because it had the side effect of bringing down a slimy dictator is a mighty thin stretch of logic, particularly since you offer no evidence that that was the true reasoning behind the first war of conquest the US has ever engaged in. It's like claiming that a burglar was justified in breaking into a house because he discovered the "I've fallen and I can't get up" lady inside and called an ambulance before leaving with his loot.

As for your attempt to make the "religious" right's notions of the beginning of human life palatable to the skeptical mind, it looks to me like a poor restate of Pascal's Wager- except that P's W applied to the individual choice of belief and not to making public policy.

It's a thinly veiled version of the Appeal to Fear- implying that if there's even a tiny chance that your doctrine is correct, we should make it policy, lest we suffer adverse consequences.

We could just as rationally aruge in favor of outlawing Terminix, on the grounds that since the Hindu doctrine of reincarnation can't be proven wrong, termite control might be killing reincarnated human souls.

Personally, I suggest spending a bit of time reading the Constitution, both to get a picture of the rightful place of religious doctrines in lawmaking and to see what a carefully-designed structure for government and its actions is being dismantled by the Bush regime's relentless arrogation of power to itself.

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend

USA
68 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  13:48:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Sea Sorbust a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust

quote:
Originally posted by creation88

OK, I'm not going to argue with you all about if a baby is or is not a human life at conception. We could argue for days and never come to anthing. It's just a matter of opinion.

What kind of idiot statement is this? Of course! it's a human just after the moment of conception. A human baby, no matter what it looks like.

Gorgo has it right: You have to draw the line somewhere and we Americans have decided that it is alright to kill a baby if the baby is young enough. End of subject; the decision had to be made and we made it through legislation and judicial edict.

The government of Iraq killing the people of Iraq is a crime, Gorgo? Against whose law? When did Iraq become the 51st state? Must have missed something. Must quickly go count stars on nearst flag.

All this has nothing to do with the utterly necessary colonization of Mars though, so I'll just mosey on to another thread.



I believe that Gorgo is referring to periodic US led air strikes since 1991 in addition to the invasion. I don't believe that he is referring to the actions of Hussein.


Ah, yes. See that now. My error.

By the way Creation88 ole nincompoop. Not a human baby immediately after conception? Have you ever seen what a baby Kangaroo ("Joey") looks like as it crawls out of the pussykin on the way to the pouch? It doesn't look anything like a 'roo but it shur enough is. In fact it looks very much like a human baby only a few weeks after conception.

It is a human baby, doofoid. To even suggest otherwise is rank nonsense.

"This is the forest primeval...."
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  18:11:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Why take the chance?

1. Because people like you, who have penises rather than uteruses (uterusi?), shouldn't be able to dictate what a woman does with her body. Your understanding of what it means to bear a child is limited at best, yet you presume to dictate what's best for all concerned.

2. If abortion were outlawed, every unwanted child would NOT be welcomed into an upper-middle-class world and given a loving home and a shiny red tricycle on its 3rd birthday. See #3 for further detail.

3. If abortion were outlawed, many unwanted children would be kept by an ambivalent (if not unfit) mother. Many unwanted children would be abused. Many would bounce around the foster care system, which is rife with abuse and ineptitude--and is sometimes NOT a stable, loving home. Many would be born with chronic illnesses or birth defects. many would be born addicted to drugs.

These are the babies conservative people like you either don't see or don't care about, C88. Because programs for poor children are being cut left and right. Try being a poor single mom in Texas. *shudders*
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  19:04:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
There is no "risk" to take. If a woman doesn't want to have to care for a baby for the rest of her life there is no law that can ever make her. There is no law or argument that can stand up to a fact that a real life baby will need a lifetime's worth of care and atention. Maybe not so much after 18 years but a baby is a responsibility and family member. A zygote is just a potential baby. All the sperm swimming around in your sack are just potential babies. An unfertlilized egg is just a potential baby. But a baby is a baby and, once again, a zygote is not a baby. There is no "chance that it is" except to someone clinging to any excuse they can.

Oh, and the bait and switch doesn't work for me in regards to Iraq. If Saddam was squatting on 20 tons of WMD's maybe we'd have a discussion. But the war is as unjust today as it was at the beginning. I can see that at least you are consistent in your excuse clinging.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  19:32:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
It's funny....you seem to have a problem with abortion C88, the termination of human life.....but when it comes to the slaughter of innocent Iraqi's it seems to be O.K for all our respective Western nations to kill as many Arabs as is required "to get the job done"....as long as we got Saddam.

Please don't lump me in on the Anti-American crap....my country is in it just as deep in it as America when it comes to the responsibility and I am equally (if not more) ashamed of my governments stance on the issue than I am of America's stance.

quote:
Your just nuts if you don't think it's been a HUGE success.


Tell that to the grieving relatives of 400 odd coalition soldiers and the thousands of potential terrorists that have been created by "collateral damage".

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  23:11:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
Maglev Posted - 12/16/2003 : 13:02:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
WARNING: Let it be known that I'm in a uber-sarcastic mood today
;

Well at least you admit it. But you forgot to mention the condisending jerkish mood your in too.

quote:
Of course not! That you could change your mind scares you. So of course you wont...


I'm sick of being hypocriticly called closed minded. I don't see anyone else striving to have an open mind and learn new things.

quote:
Of course not! You already have an opinion which was given to you by a higher power. Who are you to argue with that higher power?"


See the condisending jerkish mood comment.

quote:
Ranae:
1. Because people like you, who have penises rather than uteruses (uterusi?), shouldn't be able to dictate what a woman does with her body. Your understanding of what it means to bear a child is limited at best, yet you presume to dictate what's best for all concern.


I got many of my opinions on abortion from my mother. (who i'm quite sure has a uterus :) And even if I had come up with myself it does not really matter. A human life is a human life. Someone who murders someone can't use the excuse of....well you didn't have as hard a childhood as I did so you don't know what it's like for me. Therefore you can have no opinion that can be regarded as anything.

And you certainly seem to regard other pro-choice males opinions.

Speaking of the phrase "pro-choice". I have been thinking, if you all can put a negitive spin on "pro-life" and make it "anti-abortion", that maybe I could make some changes myself, what do you think of some of these idea's.

We can start with the obvious..."pro-death" right to the point and makes it easy. Or we could go more sneaky like "anti-abortion" is.
Such as "anti-life" or go with something thats exactly what it is. Pro-choice to kill those who can't stop us.

I think really, it's just a matter of what people can get away with. If it was suddenly legal to kill children up to 3 years old. It would start slow but once the idea set in, there would be more and more1-2-3 year olds coming in to get there "shots".

And sea sorbust, I'm sure yu can tell after reading the above. I was saying that a baby IS a human life.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your just nuts if you don't think it's been a HUGE success.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Gezzam:
Tell that to the grieving relatives of 400 odd coalition soldiers and the thousands of potential terrorists that have been created by "collateral damage".


Was WW2 a failure because of the thousands of men that died? And the "collateral damage" as you call it. Imagine how many MORE innocent Iraqis would have died, if Sadaam had stayed in power.

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2003 :  23:52:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Creation88 wrote:
quote:
I'm sick of being hypocriticly called closed minded. I don't see anyone else striving to have an open mind and learn new things.
Then perhaps you aren't looking.
quote:
Speaking of the phrase "pro-choice". I have been thinking, if you all can put a negitive spin on "pro-life" and make it "anti-abortion", that maybe I could make some changes myself, what do you think of some of these idea's.

We can start with the obvious..."pro-death" right to the point and makes it easy. Or we could go more sneaky like "anti-abortion" is.
Such as "anti-life" or go with something thats exactly what it is. Pro-choice to kill those who can't stop us.
How about: because most people who are "pro-choice," however you feel about the phrase, do not want to get knocked up and then have an abortion. No matter what your feelings about abortion, it's a pretty crappy experience. They aren't "pro-death" at all. What they want is the option of reasonably choosing to terminate a pregnancy prior to the fetus being able to experience "life as we know it," for any of a number of reasons.

On the other hand, "pro-life" folks are often also "pro-mother-dies-during-childbirth-or-from-prenatal-complications." In some cases, both mother and child will die. How can you reconcile those odds with an "all life is sacred" attitude? Are you also a vegetarian? Oh, wait, vegetables are also life. How is it that you eat at all? Do you protest against guinea pigs which eat their own newborns? That reminds me: perhaps you can tell me why it is that many "pro-life" people seem to also be pro-death-penalty?
quote:
Was WW2 a failure because of the thousands of men that died? And the "collateral damage" as you call it. Imagine how many MORE innocent Iraqis would have died, if Sadaam had stayed in power.
So you think Saddam might have become another Hitler if left alone? That's interesting. Let's apply that to your earlier analogy:

Say you're standing in front of 100 people who've committed murder, but only one of them did it on purpose, and if left alive, he is intent on killing more people. You can't tell the difference between the one guy and the other 99. Do you kill them all, just to make sure that the one evil guy dies, or do you let them all live, and only kill the one guy after he kills again? What if that new death is also accidental (or in self-defense or otherwise forgivable)? How many more deaths do you allow, before you decide you've got the right guy?

Now, let's say you're presented with 100 zygotes. None of them are wanted, all are accidental acts of conception. A highish percentage of them will, if born, have crappy childhoods and angry parents. At least one (for sake of argument) will turn these nasty early experiences into murderous rage as an adult. You would force them all to be born, anyway? Imagine how much misery would be spared them and the world if they all died.

Am I correct in assuming that you're not one of those Christians who think that newborns, incapable of sinning (since sinning requires being able to make a choice between good and evil), go straight to Heaven if they die? After all, if you do believe that, then what's the problem with abortion?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2003 :  03:51:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Actually, there are some who think that since the Nazis only started killing people in large numbers at the end of the war, that yes, the war was the reason that happened. I don't know the answer to that one yet.


quote:

Was WW2 a failure because of the thousands of men that died? And the "collateral damage" as you call it. Imagine how many MORE innocent Iraqis would have died, if Sadaam had stayed in power.



I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2003 :  06:26:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
C88, here's why I respect pro-choice men's opinions and I dismiss (however rudely) anti-abortion men's opinions:

As a man, you'll never know the anguish of making the decision to terminate or carry a pregnancy. How do you think it feels, C88? Do you think any woman every terminates a pregnancy lightly? Do you have any clue as to the ambivalence, despair, fear, anger, loss...?

You'll never know what it feels like to give a baby up for adoption--one that you carried for nine months in your own body. Do you understand the sense of obligation, guilt, loss, or longing that many women feel knowing their child wanders the universe without them?

You'll never know the anguish and fear a woman faces when she knows the father of her child won't be there at the birth; that she may give birth alone--to say nothing of handling 2 am feedings, 104 degree fevers, etc. alone. Raising a child is an enormous responsibility.

In short, I respect pro-choice men's views because they're enlightened enough to know what they don't know.

Anti-abortion men, on the other hand, take a self-righteous congratulatory stand on an issue which costs them nothing. And I really hate that.
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