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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2004 : 16:17:29
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Let's start with the beginning, with the most basic questions that can be asked.
1) Do I exist?
I've heard that some people simply don't believe in existence, but given the choice between existence and non-existence, existence seems more likely than non-existence. Therefore, if you don't believe that you exist, then our ways of thinking are too far apart to continue talking.
2) Does the world around me exist?
Since the Matrix, this question has become more valid. However, since I have no evidence either way, and it currently appears that the universe does exist, I choose to believe that the world around me exists as I see it. If you don't believe this, show me compelling evidence or leave me alone.
3)Where did the universe come from?
Here now we see some definite answers available, but mainly theories. All the theories can be divided into two groups: it was always here; or, it came into being. Still, we are trying to determine what was the First Cause. Logically, we know that in the infinite past the first cause was either intelligent or non-intelligent. Some say that the first cause was inert matter. Others say that the first cause was consiousness. If you accept my conclusion about the first two questions, feel free to join me in discussion of how intelligence originated.
Hippy
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Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 03:55:19 [Permalink]
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These questions don't exist.
Seriously, these questions are games for your mind. They have no answer beyond some degree of speculation. Yes we exist. I don't know what caused the world or why. It doesn't matter. We're here. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 05:57:58 [Permalink]
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I exist. Those who question existence need to provide a definition/criteria for their question.
The world exists. Since the Matrix was presented as fictional entertainment I'm not sure how you would use it as evidence to the contrary.
Don't know about the origins of the universe. But the First Cause/creator argument can logically be taken back toward infinity. In my mind it is a non-starter as far as explaining the origins of the universe. Just doesn't hold up well under scientific scrutiny.
Origin of intelligence and the origin of the universe seems to be 2 separate questions. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 07:33:55 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
1) Do I exist?
...
2) Does the world around me exist?
...
As you've realized, answering these question other than in the affirmative leads to solopsistic nightmares. Might be amusing for a philosophy class, or when chemically altered, but at other times only leads to twitching and paranoia.quote:
3)Where did the universe come from?
Today's best science tells us that we cannot probe "before" the beginning of our universe, so any answer to this question must be based upon pure speculation. This is not to say that every possible answer is equally as correct as every other possible answer, since some answers would entail effects we would be able to see and measure today (which may be absent), or they may preclude effects we can see.
But, the best answer to this question, right now, is "we don't know for sure, and we may never know." It's the best answer not only because it is true, but also because it requires the smallest number of assumptions.quote:
If you accept my conclusion about the first two questions, feel free to join me in discussion of how intelligence originated.
As has already been pointed out, the origin of intelligence is a vastly different subject than the origin of the universe. And before decent discussion can be had, you'll need to define what you mean by "intelligence." Also, it seems to me that the origin of life (on Earth) has been skipped.
Moakley, The Matrix was many people's first introduction to the (relatively) ancient philosophical problem of "does the world exist, or am I just some code floating around in a massive computer simulation?" If you choose to follow such questions, you'll either end up doubting everything you see, or engaging in some teenaged boy's masturbatory fantasy of being Neo, getting the girl, and saving the "real" world. Too bad for Neo, though: in the first film, he never bothered to ask if the "real" world was really real, or just a higher level of simulation. (I haven't seen either of the two later films yet - please no spoilers.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 08:35:32 [Permalink]
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| What I couldn't help but thinking when watching the Matrix was, what possible difference does it make? If you're living a life that you think is real, so what? What does it matter? Then if you find out that in that unreal world you can learn to fly, then why would you want some other world where you can't? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 13:09:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The Matrix was many people's first introduction to the (relatively) ancient philosophical problem of "does the world exist, or am I just some code floating around in a massive computer simulation?"
There is a fun article on that subject over at the Skeptic Report's web site, about one of my all time favourite psychic nut; Shirley MacLaine! Here's a link.
From the article: quote:
One of the more ridiculous ideas to pop up in WooWoo-Land is that nothing exists until somebody thinks of it. Proponents of this idea firmly believes that they - singlemindedly, one might say - each create the whole universe, on a need-to-know basis.
Hippy: I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, but here's a few answers:
1) Yeah, I beleive I exist. And most people would answer this in the same. How can one not beleive in existence? If I didnt exists, I could not go like this: "wooloo wooloo wooloo"  . This question is very similar to the classic one about the tree falling in the woods...
2) If the world around me does not exist, it means I'm making it up as I go (see quoted article above). It means I'm the guy behind 9/11, I'm responsible for Hitler, the Rwanda massacre, obesity, the depletion of the ozone layer, American Idol and Britney Spears. Why the hell would I want to do that to myself? It's -30 degrees outside my office (centigrade), my coffee stinks, and my boss sucks. Why aren't I lying on the beach in the Bahamas, sipping a good rhum while enjoying a game of naked, all female beach volleyball? Why? Cause I believe the world around me exists on its own, not for me. Sorry, no compelling evidence.
3) I have no clue, no clue at all. Sorry. Wish I could be more helpfull. There's a few theories of course, but (correct me if I'm wrong) most of them are pretty hard to validate. This answer may not please you (sorry), but I personnaly dont have much of a problem not knowing the answer to something. But I'll think about it. I do think that you have an answer to this question... Care to share it?
I am willing to discuss this subject to the best of my (limited) knowledge... I cant promise to be un-biased, or even cool headed, but neither can you... Your choice of questions kinda hint at this. But do go on!
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Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 14:25:31 [Permalink]
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Hello all,
I'd like to start off by saying that if you're not interested in the questions presented you have no obligation to be here. I don't mind at all if you are present, but telling me that you don't care about the Question doesn't affect me. I am interested in discussing the Question with whoever else also wants to discuss the Question. And I would like to restate that I believe that I and the world around me exist.
Moakley: Yes, the origin of intelligence and the universe are not quite the same question, but it's possible that they're linked. For instance: was the universe created by intelligence, or did the universe create intelligence?
Dave: Yes, realizing that most of our answers are merely speculation is a very good point, and we should keep that in mind as we go throughout this discussion. As for my definition of intelligence:
any thinking concious entity that is aware of it's surroundings, and has a personal identity.
There might be other definitions of life, but that's my definition of intelligence.
Maglev: I realize that it would be very difficult to be un-biased, and I wasn't saying that we're going to be un-biased, just that we're going to try to be unbiased, mainly by not making many assumptions.
Now then, here is something to think about: Theists say that God (term used loosely) created the universe, and atheists say, "then who created God?" Atheists say that God is not necessary to believe that something existed without being created, and they're right. But that doesn't rule out intelligent design, it merely gives us two possibilities. Intelligent design, or Unintelligent design.
Now, we all know what I'm getting at, so let me at this point cut to the chase. There are claims that an omnipotent being created and rules the universe, and that this being wishes to contact us. If you were the head of NASA and you are getting messages that a powerful alien creature wanted to talk with you, wouldn't you be interested?
There are other claims that no such being exists, that the universe was created in response to the Laws of Physics. Now, looking at these two basic claims, shouldn't you at least be interested in investigating the claims of those who say that an omnipotent alien creature wishes to contact you, especially since both sides admit that there claims (so far) are mostly speculation.
More later,
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 15:25:27 [Permalink]
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If an omnipotent alien creature exists, and he can't figure out the wireless plans enough to call me, then I don't much care about It.
I didn't say that I didn't care about the questions. I said that they are useless mind games. Just like thinking that there might be some omnipotent alien creature that is trying to contact me but doesn't know how. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 19:50:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Moakley: Yes, the origin of intelligence and the universe are not quite the same question, but it's possible that they're linked. For instance: was the universe created by intelligence, or did the universe create intelligence?
Neither. Intelligence is cumulative. It enables us to understand what little we do know about the universe. It inspires us to ask additional questions and to seek those answers. I do not need an intelligent designer/first causer/creator for the universe. Nor does the universe have any need for intelligence. The universe would still exist without intelligence, and sometimes I think that it does. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 19:51:37 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Now, we all know what I'm getting at, so let me at this point cut to the chase. There are claims that an omnipotent being created and rules the universe, and that this being wishes to contact us. If you were the head of NASA and you are getting messages that a powerful alien creature wanted to talk with you, wouldn't you be interested?
That an omnipotent being wishes to contact us has not been established. NASA is not receiving messages from deep space unambiguously stating, "I am an omnipotent being which wishes to contact you." The only messages that the head of NASA is getting that an omnipotent being wishes to contact us come directly from other human beings, here on Earth.
By the way, atheists say more than "that God is not necessary to believe that something existed without being created," they often say "that God is not necessary to explain anything we currently observe." And that is, really, all that matters to scientists (who aren't all atheists): if we cannot observe something (or its effects), then science cannot be applied to it. If we cannot ever observe what happened "before" the universe, then we can't apply science to it. Scientists may chit-chat about "what if" scenarios, but that's all it is: chit-chat.
And "necessary" is the important word. So far, we haven't found any situations for which the answer is necessarily, "God did it." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 23:19:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Now, we all know what I'm getting at, so let me at this point cut to the chase. There are claims that an omnipotent being created and rules the universe, and that this being wishes to contact us. If you were the head of NASA and you are getting messages that a powerful alien creature wanted to talk with you, wouldn't you be interested?
I would be interested!
I would invite him/her/it to come visit me. And when he gets here I'd punch him right on his nose with a baseball bat and say "Here's for not doing anything about my mother-in-laws cancer!".
If the being is truly omnipotent, there are a lot of things I'd ask him. And also a lot of things i'd like him to do for me. One thing is to ask him to correct the malfunction that causes people to insist that the world was created in six literal days.
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 10:15:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Let's start with the beginning, with the most basic questions that can be asked.
2) Does the world around me exist?
Since the Matrix, this question has become more valid. However, since I have no evidence either way, and it currently appears that the universe does exist, I choose to believe that the world around me exists as I see it. If you don't believe this, show me compelling evidence or leave me alone.
Especially if you consider your own existence to be true then the world around you must also exist. After all, you are an inseparable part of it.
quote:
3)Where did the universe come from?
Here now we see some definite answers available, but mainly theories. All the theories can be divided into two groups: it was always here; or, it came into being. Still, we are trying to determine what was the First Cause. Logically, we know that in the infinite past the first cause was either intelligent or non-intelligent. Some say that the first cause was inert matter. Others say that the first cause was consiousness. If you accept my conclusion about the first two questions, feel free to join me in discussion of how intelligence originated.
Hippy
What is the difference between intelligence and non-intellience? Is there a clear line? To me, it appears as if intelligence is to be found in biological species only (and, depending on your definition, certain computer systems too). So intelligence originated through biological evolution.
But we were talking First Cause here. If the universe is all there is, ever was and ever will be, then what could that first cause be, do you think? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 11:12:24 [Permalink]
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hippyforchrist:quote:
All the theories can be divided into two groups: it was always here; or, it came into being. Still, we are trying to determine what was the First Cause.
If "it was always here", there was no "First Cause". Therefore, the question of a "First Cause" only applies to theories that postulate a beginning.
Tom |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 13:10:53 [Permalink]
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Hippy said,
quote:
2) Does the world around me exist?
Since the Matrix, this question has become more valid. However, since I have no evidence either way, and it currently appears that the universe does exist, I choose to believe that the world around me exists as I see it. If you don't believe this, show me compelling evidence or leave me alone.
The world around you does not exist.
Look at any college text book on Geology, Astronomy, or Biology and it will point out that the earth is ~4.5 billion years old, the universe is tens of billions of years old and Evolution is a fact. You said, "I choose to believe that the world around me exists as I see it", and if I understand your earlier postings, you believe the earth is thousands of years old and the universe came into existence as it is today in 7 days. Therefore the world does NOT exist as you "choose to believe".
That brings up the beauty of science - a properly conducted experiment will yield a result that is not influenced by what you believe. The experiment will yield facts that have no regard to how you perceive the universe. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 17:22:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by TG
hippyforchrist:quote:
All the theories can be divided into two groups: it was always here; or, it came into being. Still, we are trying to determine what was the First Cause.
If "it was always here", there was no "First Cause". Therefore, the question of a "First Cause" only applies to theories that postulate a beginning.
Or as Stephen Hawkins proposed, "Should we discover that the universe is self-contained, then what need would there be for a god." Or traveling back in time toward time 0. Should we continue past time 0 we would begin moving forward in time. Or at the other extreme the entertainment found at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 22:37:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
These questions don't exist.
You're so cute Gorgo.
quote:
Seriously, these questions are games for your mind. They have no answer beyond some degree of speculation.
Now, now, Gorgo. A former philosophy professor once told my class....There is an answer to every question, but whether or not it will be found is the problem.
quote:
Yes we exist. I don't know what caused the world or why. It doesn't matter. We're here.
WOW! A fellow Buddhist. Cool!
That's what I was going to ask. Why is it important to know where we came from?
As a child I wanted so much to be an astronomer, out of curiousity but not because it's something we NEED to know. As Gorgo said, we are here. Knowing how you got here can't change the way you live your life now. |
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