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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2004 : 00:18:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Moore is a radical, and quite frankly deserves no more attention than you'd pay to his rightwing counterparts like Rush and Robertson.
Hey Dude! You sound open minded and logical unlike some people who want to put people on the right or left, dig their heels in and not listen to what's being said on the 'other side'. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 05:38:22 [Permalink]
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I don't consider Moore a radical. I consider him a liberal, which in my book is good.
Keep in mind that even documentary film makers are still storytellers first, not journalists. I view documentaries with that in mind.
I think it's funny that right-wingers get so upset over Moore. Just another reflection of their control issues, IMO. They control most of big media and big business, but every once in a while, a voice escapes their control. You go, Moore.   |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 08:04:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
I think Disney's position that the movie should not be released in an election year is absurd. If the movie says something important enough about US politics that it might affect the election, shouldn't it be released? Isn't information key to the democratic process
You are absolutely right. The film should be seen. Freedom of speech and all that crud.
But the key word is IF. Or should I say, 'Important'. In his other film(s) Moore has lied.......or if you prefer, misrepsented the truth.
His films are 'for entertainment purpous' only. They are not documentries. They are propaganda.
People should see anything they want to, as long as they realize some of it.......moore or less...... isn't information.
What kinds of things has he lied about in his prior films? I'd be interested to see specific examples. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 08:08:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
<snip>
Not getting answers is not exclusive to P. Bush. It happens almost all the time. Bugs the hell out of me. And not only to the left, right or middle......anyone being interviewed seems to want to drift into their agenda without getting to the point of the original question. Takes a very good reporter to bring the person back. I have been noticing a few trying to do that now but not enough.
I absolutely agree. It's endemic to our political system and I blame reporters for not having the balls to call out a politician who dodges a question. Of course if he DOES call out the politician, then he'll likely not get the chance to ask a powerful politician questions again - ever. |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 15:35:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think it's funny that right-wingers get so upset over Moore. Just another reflection of their control issues, IMO. They control most of big media and big business, but every once in a while, a voice escapes their control. You go, Moore
The media in the US is most definately liberal. With the exception of some talk-radio and FOX news (I hesitate to call FOX a news channel) the mainstream media hold liberal views. As such, anything they present gets often slanted in that direction. They do their best to remain objective, but I can see their bias in the way they present information.
FOX news, on the other hand, is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the extreme right. They are "fair and balanced" only in comparison to things like the inquisition. They are nothing more than proof that you can sell anything to some people. Do some research on the owner of FOX News and his stated motivations for starting that network. It will scare the liberals among us! |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 15:45:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I think it's funny that right-wingers get so upset over Moore. Just another reflection of their control issues, IMO. They control most of big media and big business, but every once in a while, a voice escapes their control. You go, Moore
The media in the US is most definately liberal. With the exception of some talk-radio and FOX news (I hesitate to call FOX a news channel) the mainstream media hold liberal views. As such, anything they present gets often slanted in that direction. They do their best to remain objective, but I can see their bias in the way they present information.
FOX news, on the other hand, is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the extreme right. They are "fair and balanced" only in comparison to things like the inquisition. They are nothing more than proof that you can sell anything to some people. Do some research on the owner of FOX News and his stated motivations for starting that network. It will scare the liberals among us!
Now THAT'S a fallacy. The media isn't anywhere near liberal enough. |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 16:46:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now THAT'S a fallacy. The media isn't anywhere near liberal enough.
You should qualify statements like the above with some indicator that says your stating an opinion.
The mainstream media are liberal. Name ONE major network evening news anchorman who is a registered republican.
And, I hate to burst your reality bubble, if your the mouthpiece for a major media outlet (whos profits depend on people watching) you don't have a job unless your political views are in line with the people who run the show.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 16:59:21 [Permalink]
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I posted this in another thread in Media Issues. It also seems pertenant here.
Nope, didn't see this comin':
quote:
In a stunning move, filmmaker Michael Moore says his latest film, "Fahrenheit 9/11"
will be released by BitTorrent, the popular peer-to-peer file-sharing network.
"This film deserves the widest possible distribution," said Moore. "I had hoped
I could achieve that with Miramax and Disney, but such was not to be the case.
I'm thrilled to announce that I have an even better solution. BitTorrent!"
http://www.denounce.com/archives/000055.html
If true, I happily await the sweet, tit-in-the-mangle howls outrage from the neo-concervatives, the freepers, and the internationally notorious tag-team of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Sweeeet howls of outrage!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 22:53:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dear DENOUNCE reader:
For the first time since DENOUNCE was created 24 years ago, I am interrupting this article to make sure readers understand that articles posted at DENOUNCE are not real: they're fake news, posted as satire, parody, humor, or plausible outcomes. Over the past 48 hours, links have been going out all over the world to people who are finding this story and treating it as if it were real. It's not. It was never published as being real.
I had hoped that traffic would die down and DENOUNCE could go back to its quiet 20000-pageviews-a-month routine, but this Moore article simply won't die, and link traffic is GROWING rather than shrinking.
So, in the interests of clarifying that this article is not and was never intended to be a hoax, I'm posting this disclaimer right at the top so you will see it. If you still don't see it, then go see an eye doctor.
Enjoy the rest of the site while you're here. This article in particular is one many have enjoyed.
Signed,
The DENOUNCE Editor
The things people will believe when they have faith!
FYI, this quoted disclaimer was posted on the exact page that filthy linked to, right at the TOP of the text of the fake article. IN RED.
I have little doubt that Moore's film will be released this summer in the US. I have little doubt that the neocons and rightwing pundits will have a feild day with it as well.
Now, if you fundie liberals here want some good news (good news for liberals anyway) about the election that is not based on a sack of idiocy liek Moore's film..... (I can't quote exact ammounts off the top of my head, so this is not 100% accurate) G.W. Bush has spent $75Million (that's the number I can't recall the exactness of) on his re-election campaign so far. A poll I read today says that if the election were held TODAY, John Kerry would carry the electorate by over 100 votes. A freakin landslide victory. How that will hold up over the next vey long six months of campaigning? Who can say. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 16:58:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
With each and every episode I understand more and more why the American establishment hates Michael Moore
Can you define American Establishment please?
Because, as far as I can see, the people who hate Moore are his opposite numbers on the radical right. And if that somehow constitutes American Establishment in your mind.... then perhaps you need to bust out the Balogney Detection Kit(tm) and examine the propaganda your TV is feeding you.
Yes, the current president happens to be one of those far-right religious fundies.... but these people are not representative of the entire country. Not representative of even a simple majority (if you understand how our electoral process works you comprehend how that is possible).
And..... as an American I object to the American Establishment being classified as radical rightwing conservatives.
Well, I've seen him go up against the Gun-lobby, "Pistol-Pete" was a great laugh.
His satirical reporting of the death-row race between Florida and Texas.
He went against an automobile company that used slave working force during the WW2, and demanded they live up to their promise reparations.
He created the Awful Truth's "Corprorate Crime Cop" taskforce where he confronts leaders of companies that have been sentenced to prison (for various reasons: white collar crimes, environmental crimes, violating safety-regulations causing deaths, subjecting medical test-subjects to harmful chemicals without informing them of it and possible side-effects etc. ), but still walks free thanks to tricks pulled off by their companies' legal departements.
These people aren't identified as radical rightwing conservatives.
Well, the pro-death-sentence people in Texas that had the combined death-wake/barbeque-party probably were.
I've got friends and coworkers that have been to the United States, and they all pretty much confirm the image presented in Swedish media. Now, before you blow of your socks again, let me inform you that I understand that there's more to America than just the pieces Michael Moore shows in The Awful Truth. The episodes airing in Sweden is the first season (I think) because the World Trade Center was still standing then. I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 19:07:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've got friends and coworkers that have been to the United States, and they all pretty much confirm the image presented in Swedish media. Now, before you blow of your socks again, let me inform you that I understand that there's more to America than just the pieces Michael Moore shows in The Awful Truth. The episodes airing in Sweden is the first season (I think) because the World Trade Center was still standing then. I'm sure the state of the nation has improved since then...
What can be said in the face of fundamentalist thinking like that?
Listen, if you want to bash America, go ahead. I'm sure that you get some entertainment value talking down about Americans. No big deal. We love that you have the freedom to do so. It's one of the ideals that we base our nation's laws and culture on. Are we perfect? No. Do we claim to be? No. Do we have people that choose to live outside our laws when it suits them? Yes. So do you.
If you decide to bash, dislike, or even hate America... that's your choice. If you decide to think that the people Moore bashes are what all Americans are like, that's your decision to make. If you decide to view all Americans through the distorted rhetoric of Moore, no problem.
You're a citizen of Sweeden? Well.... can I ask you a question? Do you think Germany would have honored your nations neutrality once they had solidified control of the rest of Europe and Russia? Do you think there is some posibility that the decision of the US to liberate Europe from the Nazis has a direct relationship to your personal freedom? A direct causal link even.
Well.... perhaps you can temper your view of the American Establishment with that historical fact.
Let me explain what it is your doing when you take a single point of view and use it to judge the entire US.
You're doing the same thing that fundies like Verlch do in defense of their god/creationism/bigotry/ect...
Take a single fact and fit it into your position, and then claim it is proof that your position is fact. Despite the possible other explanations for the original fact, which you completely ignore.... all the while ignoring any other facts that demonstrate your position is wrong.
Fundamentalist thinking at it's finest. Welcome to the fundie club Doc. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2004 : 20:09:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
You're a citizen of Sweeden? Well.... can I ask you a question? Do you think Germany would have honored your nations neutrality once they had solidified control of the rest of Europe and Russia? Do you think there is some posibility that the decision of the US to liberate Europe from the Nazis has a direct relationship to your personal freedom? A direct causal link even.
Why don't people in the USA wonder if Britain would have lost the colonies without the help of the French? Their decision to help the colonies led the the liberation of those same colonies. Not that Americans care if there is political gain to be had in bad mouthing the French for no particularly good reason.
But so what? Who liberated who had nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or error of Dr. Mabuse's post.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 00:42:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
But so what? Who liberated who had nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or error of Dr. Mabuse's post.
Correct. I never made that claim. I was just pointing out that people forget what role the US has played in the protection of freedom and democracy over the last 100 years.
I was just trying to say that despite what your opinion of the US is, we have made some important contributions to the world, and to western democracy in particular. And pointing out the fundamentalist reasoning in his post.....
quote:
Not that Americans care if there is political gain to be had in bad mouthing the French for no particularly good reason.
Not all of us badmouth the French. Some of us are aware that the French are the oldest ally of this nation, and that they played an important role in ensuring our democracy.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 03:38:42 [Permalink]
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I got that link off Buzzflash, which while about as far leftwing as you can get, is still considerably more honest then most of the national media. It's nice to know that I am not alone in getting taken. They got it, too. 
I did add the caveat of, "if true" and I wonder that I didn't see the disclaimer. Usually, I don't miss those.
Here's another that seems more reasonable:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&u=/nm/20040528/en_nm/leisure_fahrenheit911_dc&printer=1
Seems that the Weinsteins are buying the flick from Doozy and are hoping to put it out this summer.
Looking forward to squeals of neo-con and fundie pain as our alledged president sinks ever lower, ever lower. And may his coat tails to Congress be long ones.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 16:10:47 [Permalink]
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While I would not call myself a liberal.... I must agree with you filthy. These people in congress and our appionted president are not true conservatives. They are religious zealots hiding behind the claim of political conservatism. It makes me sick.
And.... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it religious zealots who flew planes into WTC?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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