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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2004 :  19:22:27  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
verlch has implied that he's here for "the purpose of debate," but in reality has done little more than make statements which are often simply wrong. Rather than try to support his assertions, he moves on to other subjects in rapid-fire succession. This kind of activity is not "debate."

Since the old thread was getting huge and going nowhere, this thread has been created so that verlch may still have a chance to support his assertions. Others here may also provide support for them, as well (if you so choose), but no other posts will be tolerated until such a time as support for at least one of the "facts" below has been provided. Instead, they will simply be deleted as I find them. And if verlch posts more assertions to this thread, they will be deleted after being added to the list.

Actually, if anyone feels like posting a "first strike" rebuttal to any of these things, please go right ahead. Make sure to use references, since that's what this thread is asking verlch to do. And if some support for these statements shows up from some party, a discussion of that evidence can take place.

Please remember that I plan on moderating this thread very strictly. Be on your best forum behaviour, and don't waste your typing by posting jokes.

The list:
  1. No fossilized tree has ever been shown to be more than 2,000 years old at its death.

  2. We should be able to find fossilized trees older than 2,000 years at their deaths if the Earth is old.

  3. Some unnamed guy bred billions of generations of fruit flies.

  4. None of those fruit flies ever showed any hints of evolving.

  5. But they were all unique.

  6. Earth displays the same evidence of being manufactured as a watch.

  7. Human brains defy nature.

  8. There are more neurons in a human brain than there are stars in the universe.

  9. The Bible contains truth.

  10. Christians and Jews are executed for their beliefs today and will be in the future.

  11. Saddam tried to rebuild Babylon.

  12. At least one person was convinced of evolution by the Piltdown Man hoax.

  13. "Learned men" (supposedly scientists) would kill people for not believing the world was flat 400 years ago.

  14. Teachers wouldn't have jobs if they didn't believe in evolution.

  15. Those same teachers can't explain individual humans' uniqueness.

  16. There is no scientific explanation for clouds floating.

  17. The teachers of our teachers were strong atheists.

  18. Strong atheism promotes job security and ensures the publication of papers and books.

  19. People who understand evolution think it means "we evolved from nothing."

  20. There is no visible proof of evolution.

  21. There are trillions of species extant today.

  22. Cosmic accidents are worthless.

  23. Nobody who understands evolution also glorifies God.

  24. Earth is "what the universe would have been like if the Devil had controlled it."

  25. "Lucifer was in heaven with God and he rejected Him."

  26. "Isreal was God's choosen people and [they] rejected Him."

  27. God lead the Israelites through the desert in a cloud.

  28. The story of Noah and the Flood as found in the Bible is accurate.

  29. The people here take joy in mocking Christians and Jews.

  30. The dead are capable of knowledge.

  31. We can't see evidence of macroevolution today.

  32. Trees have existed for as long as the Earth.

  33. There are upside-down fossilized trees with roots intact.

  34. Only a global flood can explain such fossils.

  35. Fossilized fish show evidence that they were gasping for air.

  36. The same fossilized fish have broken backs and are twisted by a "global force."

  37. Geological strata are "broken and smashed" in all directions.

  38. Evolution "has no purpose" for humans breathing air.

  39. We should be able to find 4,500-year-old fossilized bristlecone pines.

  40. There are upside-down fossils of trees which show no signs of rot.

  41. A global flood coupled with hydrological sorting and swimming humans explains the relative positions of fossils to one another.

  42. A plethora of "missing links" should be found in the fossil record.

  43. Such "missing links" would "prove" evolution.

  44. Carbon dating is so error-prone that it is fair to call it fiction.

  45. Ideas about the evolution of humans are falsified simply because verlch cannot "attest" to them.

  46. The Earth can be carbon dated.

  47. The process by which granite forms is unknown.

  48. Scientists cannot explain how a mustard seed grows into a plant.

  49. Evolution tells us that fish evolved into mammoths which evolved into elephants.

  50. Evolution tells us that monkeys evolved from chaos.

  51. There should be "millions and billions" of transitional fossils.

  52. We have proved that fossilization happens easily.

  53. To prove evolution, we need to provide an entire timeline of a species' evolution (implied: from the original lifeform on Earth).

  54. Nobody's ever burned On the Origin of Species.

  55. The Earth is 70% water.

  56. The fact that people are complicated proves the existence of God.

  57. The penalty of sin is death.

  58. Bugs, plants, oxygen and soil were all required, together, at some point in the distant past.

  59. Evolutionary theory tells us that water "magically" came into being.

  60. When Noah's Ark is found, we will all "dismiss it as a fairy tale."

  61. We wear clothes for no other reason but shame.

  62. God made humans the "best" creatures on Earth.

  63. That humans wear clothes proves the Bible to be correct.

  64. Mustard seeds are simple.

  65. Millions of fossilized trees have had their rings counted.

  66. Trees petrify and then they die.

  67. Sources of information which contradict one another should be trusted.

  68. Volcanos and lava can exist on a planet which is "void and without form."

  69. A fossilized tree which died when it was really old would "prove" evolution.

  70. Without such a tree, the theory falls apart.

  71. Trees should fossilize easily.

  72. We "don't like" the idea of a Creator.

  73. We attempt to "explain away facts."

  74. We "champion life from nothing."

  75. We ignore "strange facts."

  76. We dismiss "strange facts" as lies.

  77. Without even bothering to examine them.

  78. verlch has given us "facts."

  79. Explaining life without God is purposeless.

  80. We think God's laws are difficult to follow.

  81. Evolutionary theory leads people away from God.

  82. Which is why people attack those who promote evolution.

  83. We say that men and women "came from nothing."

  84. We say that people are not answerable for their actions.

  85. verlch's marriage problems stemmed from his evolutionist, feminazi wives.

  86. Sexual equality doesn't equal a "happy life."

  87. A high divorce rate is due to sexual equality.

  88. The words "woman" and "female" derive from womens' innate subservience to men.

  89. The Bible hasn't changed in 2,000 years.

  90. The way Christians numbered the years might prove that God exists.

  91. There's an ancient secret in an ancient library.

  92. Phallic symbols prove that "Babylon still lives" (I have no idea what that means).

  93. There is no evidence which would show if the chicken or the egg came first.

  94. Obelisks originated in Babylon.

  95. Obelisks are only phallic symbols.

  96. Sun worship originated in Babylon.

  97. Babylonians worshipped Saturn.

  98. Evolution is a "fairy-tale theory."

  99. There are items found in rocks which cannot be explained.

  100. A picture of a lump of coal and a gold chain "proves" something.

  101. Piltdown Man "worked" as a hoax until DNA evidence showed it to be wrong.

  102. Sin, disease, and death are all Eve's fault.

  103. We will all see God after death.

  104. We should be able to feel the speed at which the Earth is moving through the universe.

  105. verlch isn't "afraid to talk origins with anybody."

  106. Gaia has something to do with witchcraft, as does astrology.

  107. There should be six-winged birds around today.

  108. verlch's father is a reputable source of information about evolution.

  109. Evolution is comparable to 100 pennies tossed in the air.

  110. We are funded by a rocket scientist.

  111. The fossils are sorted in their strata according to how easily they could escape the Flood.

  112. verlch's "father worked closely with a creationist."

  113. Fossilized birds should look nothing like modern birds.

  114. A hoaxed "dino-bird" is evidence against evolution.

  115. Fossilized mammals should look nothing like modern mammals.

  116. Bats are irreducibly complex.

  117. Evolution tells people how things "should" be.

  118. Fossilized poops prove only that things have been buried quickly.

  119. Modern turtles look like ancient turtles.

  120. Somebody said that verlch has a "doomsday attitude."

  121. "Science" can't agree on what happened 4,500 years ago.

  122. People are expected to be "evolutionists" to participate here.

  123. No fossils show change over the last 400 million years.

  124. People here have more faith in Darwin than verlch does in God.

  125. The Bible is valid evidence within a debate of creationism vs. evolution.

  126. We consider verlch a troll because he's not an "evolutionist."

  127. The tree named 'Methusela' is evidence for the Biblical Flood.

  128. The age of coral reefs has something to do with the age of the Earth.

  129. The age of Niagara falls has something to do with the age of the Earth.

  130. Calculating backwards with the current speed of the Moon's recession is a valid methodology.

  131. Creationists must "zip the lip" in these forums.

  132. verlch is "simply debating something that I consider a fairy tale, nothing less."

  133. Evolution is a "faith based religion."

  134. verlch has studied evolution, biology, geology, math, and science in general.

  135. Wathcing PBS is the same as studying science.

  136. Dinosaurs lived 280 billion years ago.

  137. The universe is at least 12 trillion years old.

  138. I'm not letting verlch speak his "peace."

  139. Everything verlch has presented so far has been labeled 'lies'.

  140. People here have not shown verlch any "missing links."

  141. Mammoths evolved into elephants 485 million years ago.

  142. People here cannot show fish evolving into mammoths.

  143. The fossil record only covers the last 400 million years.


- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2004 :  19:37:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Modern turtles look like ancient turtles.


Actually, they rather do, particularly our snapping turtles and sea turtles. Except in size. Some of these animals would dwarf our moderm leatherback turtle, which has been measured at some 11 feet long. I'll give verlch this one. I'll also give him crocodilians, should he want to add them. But I must ask, so what?

Don't have references handy, but I'll dig them up if asked.

Now, about # 44............?

Edited because I am a grammer-challenged idiot and to add that this could be a hell of a lot of fun. Eddykshunl too. Just look at all the wonderful topics to tear apart!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/27/2004 19:47:50
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2004 :  19:42:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Please do provide references, filthy. It's only fair.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2004 :  20:39:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
You are right, of course.

quote:
A Singular Sea Turtle...
More than six feet long, weighing as much as 1400 pounds (636 kg), leatherbacks are the world's largest pelagic (ocean-going) turtles. They are also the only sea turtle with a soft, rubbery shell. (All others have hard, bony-plated shells.) Leatherbacks have special "../glossary.html" \l "ADAPTATION" that allow them to eliminate waste gases through their skin, so they can stay under water for extraordinarily long periods. Inside their bodies, they actually convert salt water to fresh water, ingesting the sea water around them and excreting the salt. Their bodies are insulated by a thick layer of fat -- another adaptation that is unique among turtles to leatherbacks.


http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/Endangered/turtle/turtle.html

I see that I'm mistaken on the size, or the site is. I got my info from a print article some years ago and don‘t remember where. The Leatherback is the largest turtle in today's world. And it much resembles the ancients. That said, here's Archelon:

quote:
This giant turtle of the Cretacious seas did not have the heavy, many-plated shell characteristic of its land and fresh-water relatives. Instead, the shell of Archelon was reduced to a framework of struts, made from the bony ribs that grew out from its backbone. Most probably, the ribs were covered by a thick coat of rubbery skin like the modern leatherback sea turtle.

The limbs of this ancient sea turtle were transformed into massive paddles that would have cleaved the water in powerful, vertical strokes. The front flippers of Archelon were well developed, and would have provided the main propulsive force.
Like the modern leatherback turtle, Archelon probably fed on a diet of jellyfish, whose soft bodies were easily eaten by the reptile's weak jaws and toothless beak.


http://www.worldzone.net/science/dinoplanet/Archelon.html

quote:
One distinct characteristic of this gigantic marine turtle was its tremendous overbite. While Archelon's beak had no cutting edge, the turtle's heavy mandible, thick palate and hooked beak produced a deadly bite. Since the Archelon was a carnivore (meat-eater), this large, powerful jaw served the creature well. Its curved beak also kept food in its mouth while being crushed. The Archelon may have used its beak to dig for food, as well.

Additional characteristics of the Archelon include a long, narrow head and a pointed tail. While the average Archelon typically reached lengths of nine to 13 feet, the largest specimen found spanned 16 feet from snout to tail. Its shell alone measures seven feet, three inches.



http://www.uhaul.com/supergraphics/turtle/archelon.html

There is another giant that I can't find as I don't have the Latin name for it.

Turtles, by their nature fossilize easily, the shell, anyway (except for such as Archelon). You can buy one at any fossil show at a reasonable price. One that I haven't seen nor heard of is the ancestor of our modern softshells.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2004 :  21:03:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Oooh, oooh, can I do another? Pleeeeease?

In the absense of support for #44, I wanna fill in the blank with Archeoraptor, if I've spelled that right.

quote:
A hoaxed "dino-bird" is evidence against evolution.


I'll do it tomorrow as I'm up past my bedtime.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  03:30:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
......And it is now tomorrow. I do hope our absent friend will be reading this.


National geographic blew it on this one and the Creationists went rolling on the floor in orgasmic joy. For some reason that is beyond my ken, they think that this minor hoax proves, or rather disproves something.

Sarfati of AiG wrote several articles on it filled with blather and quote mining. Here's one that I'll not bother to excerpt:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4208news2-3-2000.asp

The ICR clown & dingbat show also went ecstatic:

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-321.htm

Of course, we can't leave the Creationists without comments from Tim LeHay, blatherskite extraordinaire. You've got to open this one. It's beautiful!

quote:
Two other “proofs” of evolution have since been tossed into the cosmic wastepaper basket: England's peppered moth and Archaeoraptor. Both have been used for many years to brainwash naive school children with the theory of evolution. Now it turns out that both were fakes.

Chinese paleontologist Xu Xing contends that Archaeoraptor, long used by evolutionists as “proof” that birds evolved from dinosaurs, is a combination of two fossils: one of the body and head of a birdlike creature and the other of the tail of a dinosaur. Xing says he has found another fossil, in a private collection in China, that contains the mirror image of the supposed tail of the Archaeoraptor. National Geographic magazine published a note in its March 2000 issue saying that CT scans of the fossil appear to confirm Xing's observations and “revealed anomalies in the fossil's reconstruction.” The magazine said details “will be published as soon as the studies are completed.”
Translation: We have been lied to again!



http://members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evol/lies/lie012.html

There were a great many red faces at NG when careful examination, not done by Creationists, few if any of whom would know what they were looking at in the first place, demonstrated that it was a fraud.

It must be remembered that National Geographic is a popular publication, not a scientific one. For some reason, that fact seems to avoid the YECs like moths avoid bats (some moths can pick up on bat's echolocation cries, but that's grist for another mill).

It must be further remembered that NG is an honest publication and as soon as the hoax was verified, it came out and said so.

quote:
Ancient Bird, Study Says

Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
November 20, 2002

The principal part of a famously fabricated dinosaur fossil is an ancient fish-eating bird, scientists report.

The Archaeoraptor fossil was introduced in 1999 and hailed as the missing evolutionary link between carnivorous dinosaurs and modern birds. It was fairly quickly exposed as bogus, a composite containing the head and body of a primitive bird and the tail and hind limbs of a dromaeosaur dinosaur, glued together by a Chinese farmer. [See sidebar]
Initial CT scans suggested that the fossil might have been made up of anywhere from two to five specimens of two or more species. Chinese and American scientists now report that the fabricated fossil is made up of two species.


What the Creationists fail to take into account (or ignore) is that this fossil is very valuable in that it was made from two previously unknown species from about the same era; a bird and a dromaeosaur.

quote:
Yanornis martini was first identified by Zhou Zhonghe and

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/28/2004 05:10:48
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  06:52:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
Ok. Lets try some of these.

3) Literally impossible. The life cycle of the fruit fly requires two weeks to produce a generation. 2 billion (2 thousand million for our European friends) weeks exceeds the lifespan of the oldest human by a factor of several tens of thousands. One billion generations of fruit flies would take, by my rough estimation, in excess of 38.4 million years. http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/bi/1994/life_cycle.html

7) While the logical processes which go on inside a human brain sometimes boggle the imagination, they are completely natural and act as such. They adapt to injury, and have areas which have been discovered to control some functions. The discovery process for the human brain is by no means complete. This does not make the human brain somehow unnatural.

10) There has always been strife between religions and even within religions. It usually occurs in third world countries such as Sudan. Likewise, memebers of other religions have been executed for their beliefs. The Muslims of Bosnia spring to mind. (1992 - 1995 200,000 Muslim villagers were killed by Orthodox Christians) (San Fransisco Chronicle, 3/30/2000, page A18)

12) At least one damn fool person can be convinced of anything. Piltdown man was a scientific victory because science proved it was a hoax.

19) Ah, no. The theory that we evolved from nothing is called abiogenesis. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

21) I'll buy millions. Not trillions (one million million for our European friends) http://rbcm1.rbcm.gov.bc.ca/end_species/insectax.html

55) This one I can actually agree with if he means 70% of the Earth's surface is water. http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

72) I like the idea of a Creator. I am a theistic person.

88) Women are inately subserviant to men? Someone should tell the Amazons, West Sumatrans, and some of the early Matriarchial societies which considered women superior to men, especially in religious functions because women are the only ones who can bring life forth from their bodies. http://www.dusun.com/wsumatera.html

103) While I believe we will see the God and Godess after we die, there is no proof for this assertation.

131) Creationists must provide sources for their assertations and logical proof for their positions, just like everyone else.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  07:28:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Nice, Val. Verlch had generously given us a wealth of topics to discuss, has he not?

Eventually, I'll probably have to do the fabeled #44, unless somebody else wants it. I was saving it to flog and flay it's originator, but he becomes more and more tardy. I fear he's gone Over the Hill. It's an interesting topic and worthy of a close examination.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  10:55:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
10. Christians and Jews are executed for their beliefs today and will be in the future.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA200031999

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE120091997

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/2/20/60702.shtml

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/1_6/pages/vietnam.html

http://www.persecution.org/Countries/north_korea.html

On the question of Christians being executed in the future, only God knows.

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  15:16:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
125. The Bible is valid evidence within a debate of creationism vs. evolution.


From the fundamentalist view the bible is the innerant word of god. If Verlch were debating creation/evolution with a group of fundamentalists, then yes, you could use the bible as evidence because all parties involved would accept the definition of the bible above. (I just assume here that Verlch believes the bible is the innerant word of god).

Verlch, in order for me to accept the use of the bible as evidence in any argument concerning the creation/evolution debate, you would first be required to demonstrate that the bible is the innerant word of god. (fyi, because you say so isn't good enough)

To examine this problem a bit more closely.... to prove the assertion "the bible is the innerant word of god" there is another issue wich you'd have to address first. You'd be required to prove the existance of god.

So, when you solve these two minor problems.... you can use the bible as evidence of a created universe.

quote:
29. The people here take joy in mocking Christians and Jews.



Inaccurate at the least. Perhaps some of them do, but to claim all of them do is false.

quote:
53. To prove evolution, we need to provide an entire timeline of a species' evolution (implied: from the original lifeform on Earth).


False. I can give you an example of evolution at work in humans. Lactose tolerance. The reason that some people have problems digesting lactose is a direct observation of evolutionary changes at work in humans. The gene that codes for production of lactase (the enzyme that digests lactose) has changed in the large majority of humans to STAY ACTIVE past infancy. This change began shortly after humans discovered domestication and agriculture, as milk from various mammals then became a steady part of the diet. The ability to digest lactose is an evolutionary change. (Genome, by Matt Ridley,2000) (A very good read, btw, for anyone interested in genetics)

quote:
61. We wear clothes for no other reason but shame.



I don't know about you.... but when it snows I wear clothes so that certain parts of my anatomy don't get frostbite. When the sun is blazing down, I wear clothes so my lilly-white self doesn't char.

quote:
66. Trees petrify and then they die.



ROFLMAO! Verlch, can you please show me ONE petrified living tree? /sigh.... Ok, Verlch... go here www.dictionary.com and type in petrified. Read the definition.




Does anyone really think Verlch will pay any attention to anything in this thread?

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  20:37:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
My turn to do one!
quote:
We should be able to feel the speed at which the Earth is moving through the universe.

Verlch my dear boy you have confused velocity with acceleration. I think the best way to explain this is with an example.
If you have ever been on a plane traveling at several hundred miles an hour you may have noticed that you did not feel like you were even moving. However, when the plane takes off there is a very clear sense of movement. You feel the acceleration of take off, but you cannot feel the constant velocity during flight.

Hope this makes sense to you.

If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  20:56:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Robb wrote:
quote:
quote:
10. Christians and Jews are executed for their beliefs today and will be in the future.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA200031999
Hmm... Given this:
Concerns have been expressed that these attacks have been carried out directly by, or in connivance with, right-wing Hindu groups... These groups have spoken out strongly against the alleged forcible conversion of tribal people and others by Christian missionaries, justified attacks on Christians and their property and advocated their expulsion from India.
It makes it sound like the attack was retaliation for alleged actions by Christians, and not just because they were Christians. The point of #10 is that many Christians still consider themselves to be living in a time when they can be fed to the lions by whomever is in power, on a whim, just due to their being Christians. If Christians go into India and piss people off through their actions, the revenge they might experience is not persecution (unless the allegations are trumped up, which has yet to be shown, apparently).
quote:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE120091997
This one is a "maybe." It's unclear whether the group picked the church due to it being Christian, or just as a good method of formenting horror and publicity.
quote:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/2/20/60702.shtml
I'd be much more impressed with this if China had declared Christianity as a whole to be a cult. Instead, like with Falungong, this is probably a case where those arrested and sentenced to death held political views which clashed with the government's, and not really about religion.
quote:
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/1_6/pages/vietnam.html
Political here, too:
Vietnam's largest ethnic group, the Kihn, are traditional Vietnamese. Since the communist takeover of South Vietnam in 1975, the Kihn majority has repressed all of Vietnam's 54 ethnic minorities and undertaken a program of assimilation to eliminate ancient tribal cultures. Repression has intensified as many of the tribal groups have begun to renounce animism and ancestor worship for Christianity. Repression has been particularly costly to Montagnards in the central highlands region.

During the Vietnam War, an estimated 50 percent of all Montagnard males were killed fighting alongside members of the United States Army Special Forces or Green Berets in the central highlands. Their past association with and continued fondness for Americans has made them particularly susceptible to Vietnamese attacks.
Their conversion to Christianity gives this minority group more political allies, which is what the Kihn are really trying to stomp out.
quote:
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/north_korea.html
I'll give you this one, but I am very wary of the source. The ICC feels okay with listing, as acts of Christian persecution, Christian murders in which neither the assailants nor the motives were known. Simple robberies could, therefore, be masquerading as "persecution." North Korea, if true, would definitely count under what I wrote above, but I'm having a hard time taking the ICC's word for those reports.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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thecor
New Member

Italy
27 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  02:32:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send thecor a Private Message
In reference to #127, the Methusela Tree is dated to be 4789 years old.
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm#CurreyTree

According to Bishop Usher, http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html
quote:
In this way, Bishop Ussher computed that the earth had been created in 4004 BC and that the flood occurred in 2350 BC which was henceforth accepted as the "traditional" biblical date,( though there is rival literal interpretation similarly inspired, setting the date at 2459 BC)

Wouldn't the Methusela tree predate the flood by 435 years ?(4789-(2004+2350).)
Or is my math/logic wrong?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  03:45:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Dinosaurs lived 280 billion years ago.




Not too shabby for living in a universe no more than 15 billion years old (current thought is 13.5 billion). I'll not dignify this amazing bit of silliness further.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  03:59:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
One more. I find it hard to stay away from this. Verlch has come up with a fascinating barrel of utter tripe.

quote:
The Bible contains truth.



Indeed it does, but when it starts blithering about talking snakes, global floods, voices from burning shrubery (it is a bad thing to hear dinembodied voices, Moe), water into wine without the usual fermentation process, and so forth, one might not be blamed if one begins harbor doubts.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/31/2004 04:02:01
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  16:29:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
80. We think God's laws are difficult to follow.



I may actually agree with Verlch here, if the statement were changed to not imply the acceptance of god's existence with any answer you can give.

Say instead.... I think the laws set forth in the bible are difficult to follow. (or some variation of the statement that does not require implicit acceptance of god)

Then I would agree.... I think it would be very difficult to follow, for example, the levitical code. As I work every sabbath, and I see hundreds of people also working on the sabbath, I'm required by levitical code to stone them all to death and then present myself to somebody for immediate stoning.

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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