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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2004 : 11:20:06
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Stewardship-- the conducting, supervising, or managing of something... the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one's care...
Stewardship is a word used often in the Bible and was at one time used often in England. It was used in England because the youth of the landed aristocracy was taught that they were responsible for the care of the family properties in such a way that they passed on to the next generation an inheritance equal to but more appropriately larger than that received. Each generation was not the owner but was the steward for the family estates. Any individual who squandered the inheritance was a traitor to the family.
I am inclined to think that each human generation must consider itself as the steward of the earth and therefore must make available to the succeeding generations an inheritance undiminished to that received.
In this context what does "careful and responsible management" mean? I would say that there are two things that must be begun to make the whole process feasible. The first is that the public must be convinced that it is a responsible caretaker and not an owner and secondly the public must be provided with an acceptable standard whereby it can judge how each major issue affects the accomplishment of the overall task. This is an ongoing forever responsibility for every nation but for the purpose of discussion I am going to speak about it as localized to the US.
Selfishness and greed are fundamental components of human nature. How does a nation cause its people to temper this nature when the payoff goes not to the generation presently in charge but to generations yet to come in the very distant future? Generations too far removed to be encompassed by the evolved biological impulse to care for ones kin. How is it possible to cause a man or woman to have the same concern for a generation five times removed as that man or woman has for their own progeny? I suspect it is not possible, but it does seem to me to be necessary to accomplish the task of stewardship.
Would it be possible to cause the American people to reject completely the use of air-conditioning so that generations five times removed could survive? Is it possible to create in a person a rational response strong enough to overcome the evolved nature of greed and selfishness? I cannot imagine any rational motivation of sufficient strength to divert the natural instincts of a whole people for an extended time. Therefore, the motivation force must be emotionally based.
A compelling sense of stewardship must come through religion. Rationality is insufficient to creating a compulsion to sacrifice immediate gratification for such remote ends.
If religion were capable of creating this sense of stewardship the next problem would be how to create a credit/debit technique which would allow a nation to develop a balance between what is subtracted from the legacy to that which is added to the legacy.
How to place a value upon the creation of additional highways which might balance the effect of destroying so many acres of a forest. How to value the development of a new vaccine and how to value the increase in atmospheric CO2. The people must have an easily understood valuation scheme so that they could make the necessary judgments to maintain the balance sheet.
Renting and owning are metaphors denoting that the earth is a legacy passed from one generation to the next. Each generation is a steward responsible for the legacy and should pass it to the next generation undiminished. Stewardship was an important concept in the past especially in England where the legacy was the family land. Anyone who diminished the family inheritance was a traitor to the clan.
My point regarding religion was that stewardship is a demanding stricture requiring that an individual look beyond her own interest and even beyond her own progeny. One must have instilled a concern for generations far into the future. Such unselfishness must be fortified by more than rationality. Such unselfishness could only reach the required powerful influence if instilled within religious dogma. Instead of “increase and multiply” “be a good steward”.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 11:46:23 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
A compelling sense of stewardship must come through religion. Rationality is insufficient to creating a compulsion to sacrifice immediate gratification for such remote ends.
I disagree with this premise. I am doing things today which are not immediately gratifying to me so that my children's children's children's children (and the rest of the world) will hopefully live better than I. The only thing even remotely "religious" about my motivations is the idea that what I do can have some effect - however small - upon the general population.
That "religion" is called, simply, "idealism," although my idealism is fairly realistic. I know, for example, that my name probably won't wind up in any history books as an innovator or leader. I know that I'm not going to change the world by myself. However, I'd like to think that what I am doing will make life for future generations at least one six-billionth easier (whatever that means), and thus I will have done my part among the current population of the planet.
People need to be taught that their actions in this life can "make a difference," and turn the selfishness of "nothing I do matters" (a position reinforced by unrealistic expectations that people can change the world overnight) into "the things I do can make life easier, even if only a teensy weensy bit." When I was in grade school, this was the goal of the student activism programs which encouraged kids to start petitions of the government. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 13:16:45 [Permalink]
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Dave
What percentage of the population takes the same attitude as you? Do you really think that reason is a strong enough influence on many people such that they would make sacrifice today for two generations in the future? If you do, your experiences and study are far different than my own. I enjoy your optimissim. I doubt your judgement. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 13:26:50 [Permalink]
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| Part of my idealism tells me that I can spread my outlook within the general population. A defeatist attitude -- that the majority of the population will never share my basic philosophy, or even that I cannot convince another single person that reason is a good thing -- undermines the very reason I am spending time here on the Skeptic Friends Network. I helped to craft the mission statement here, and I'm serious about it. Assuming that I'll never be able to do what I have set out to do here eliminates the need I feel to even try. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 13:34:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
A compelling sense of stewardship must come through religion.
From what I have seen this is usually accomplished through fear. I also don't follow your either/or argument that it's either religion or it's rational. What about the force that drives all life on Earth? That's right, evolutionary forces may be behind everything, and that includes religion, we do to ensure the survival and chance at reproduction of our offspring. I think this is the overriding force that compels us and not rationality or religion. It is neither optimistic or pessimistic.
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 15:52:55 [Permalink]
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| As I see it a person is motivated either by emotion or reason. Perhaps the motivation that triggers reason is the environment. I know of no other force upon human behavior than emotion or reason. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 17:50:51 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
I know of no other force upon human behavior than emotion or reason.
In which category would you classify instinct? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 05:34:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
<snip>Do you really think that reason is a strong enough influence on many people such that they would make sacrifice today for two generations in the future? If you do, your experiences and study are far different than my own. I enjoy your optimissim. I doubt your judgement.
ABSOLUTELY! Human beings are emminently capable of reason - it is our greatest quality. The irony is that religion, the greatest social force in human culture, is diametricly opposed to reason and encourages people to behave irrationaly. The thought that religion will lead us down the road to responsible management of the environment is absurd. Afterall, Christianity teaches us to expect the end of the world, which will be accompanied by plague, famine, war, etc. It teaches us to conquer nature and use the world as we see fit. It teaches us we have a place in the world - on top, as users and conquerors of nature. This is not a good philosophy for the long term managment of the planet. Reason teaches us - through observation and understanding - that if we expect to survive on this world with any kind of civilization and decent quality of life, we need to STOP what religion has always told us was OK. But FAITH teaches all too many to mistrust REASON and the proofs of observation and study. |
-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 06:36:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
A compelling sense of stewardship must come through religion.
Why religion? You need to come up with some very good motivation if you want to convince me.
quote:
Rationality is insufficient to creating a compulsion to sacrifice immediate gratification for such remote ends.
I don't agree. Presently it might be insufficient, but we need to teach our surroundings and our children the importance of it.
A agree holehartedly with Dave here... Each of us can make a difference.
quote:
If religion were capable of creating this sense of stewardship the next problem would be how to create a credit/debit technique which would allow a nation to develop a balance between what is subtracted from the legacy to that which is added to the legacy
Like Kil Chaloobi indicated, religion, and especially Christianity have proved itself insufficient in this regard.
By the way, what is a religion without a God? How can we manufacture a God potent enough to replace Christianity? Because it needs to be replaced if we are going to use religious institution to enforce stewardship.
Edited: It was Chaloobi, not Kil I was referring to above. Sorry, Kil. |
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/24/2004 11:17:31 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 06:49:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Like Kil indicated
I haven't said anything on this thread. Maybe your refering to chaloobi. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 07:03:28 [Permalink]
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As I understand it religious people believe that reason and revelation are both a source of truth. Others accept only reason as a source of truth.
My reading of history and my social experience leads me to conclude that truth as revealed in religion is a far stronger and more pervasive force acting to excite behavior than is reason. I have no way to prove this and rely only on my judgement. Most of you seem to judge the matter differently. We will just have to disagree here.
The problem I speak of is the problem of motivating people to sacrifice something today for themselves in order that generations far removed will have a better chance for survival.
I will just point to the matter of oil. It seems to me that if reason were a sufficient motivating influence we would act very different from what we do.
Hopefully we will be motivated to modify our behavior for the sake of future generations. I guess you all agree on this matter. Perhaps you feel that we do not owe anything to the future generations.
I must admit that instinct is a force for behavior. But I do not consider it as intellectual but as mechanical. We respond in a programmed way as a result of instinct. But perhaps you could say the same thing about emotion but I don't think so.
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 07:20:21 [Permalink]
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| I must add that I consider religion to be an emotional force. It certainly is not a rational force. Emotion is a far greater force for behavior than is reason in my judgement. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 07:58:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst<snip>The problem I speak of is the problem of motivating people to sacrifice something today for themselves in order that generations far removed will have a better chance for survival.
<snip>
Since when does religion concern itself with the long term survival of humanity? The last time I checked, Christianity was eagerly awaiting the return of Christ, after which the world will be destroyed, everyone will either ascend into Heaven or be banished to Hell. If you really believe this, then why in the world are you worrying about stewardship of the planet so the human species can live well far into the future? Worrying about THAT is a breach of Christian Faith. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 06/24/2004 11:23:18 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:15:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Like Kil indicated
I haven't said anything on this thread. Maybe your refering to chaloobi.
Oops, sorry. I don't know where Kil came from. I must have been very tired. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:37:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
As I understand it religious people believe that reason and revelation are both a source of truth. Others accept only reason as a source of truth.
I believe you meant to say "Others (meaning Christians) accept only revelation as a source of truth"
In that, I believe you are correct. And as you indicate in a later post, religion is an emotional force.
But emotional forces are short term, unless guided by reason. I've seen people being turned on to Jesus at revival meetings, only to drop out of church a year or two later when the excitement over the salvation has faded. The church won't keep it's members unless they have organised brainwashing (an activity which is dependent on it's practitian's reason) on order to convince them of staying. I think Verlch is an excellent example of their success.
Yes, religion is a potent force, but it is by itself short term. It needs guidance for long term goals, and that usually falls upon a charismatic leader to provide. Which is by no means a guarantee for a successful ecological plan. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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