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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:29:38
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I should probably ask this at some Christian forum, but thought I'd see if anyone here can offer insight or provide links for further discussion...
So if I recall Christian doctrine properly, people didn't go to heaven until good ol' Jesus died for everyone's sins. Thus, people who died before Jesus all went sraight to hell-- including Moses, Noah, Joseph, and countless others.
However, even after Jesus' death countless millions were still condemned to rot in hell. This is because thanks to the conventions of Iron Age technology, all the inhabitants of the Americas and Australia, as well as most of Africa and Asia, were ignorant of Yahweh and Jesus until relatively late in history-- only the last five hundred years or so. Even much of Europe was in the dark regarding JEsus for several hundred years after his death, all resulting in countless souls heading straight to hell.
So my questions are as follows: a) am I right in assuming that people who hadn't heard of Jesus and pledged to love him, etc. all- according to Christian doctrine-- rotting in hell; b) if so, how can any Christian think that their god is at all loving just and fair?; c) if not, how does this reconcile with the generally accepted notion that only 'through Jesus' can one get to heaven?; and d) if so or if not, where is the evidence to support this.
Thanks for your help!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2004 : 22:35:44 [Permalink]
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| A)-- No....Jesus was the new eternal option. He took away the need for sacrifices. So no they are not "rotting in hell" |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 00:16:46 [Permalink]
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| What about the millions who never heard of the guy? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 06:57:45 [Permalink]
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My in-laws are of the opinion that if you do not - or cannot - accept Christ as your Saviour, you're doomed to Hell. So, Adam, Eve, Moses, King David, Ruth, etc. are all burning, as are - they've said - any intelligent aliens who might be out there on other planets, since Jesus was sent only to Earth.
When I suggested that that seems a bit cruel, they shrug it off as "God's Will," and suggest that He's got some unknowable Plan that will become clear. Pretty much a conversation-ender, right there. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 07:48:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I should probably ask this at some Christian forum, but thought I'd see if anyone here can offer insight or provide links for further discussion...
So if I recall Christian doctrine properly, people didn't go to heaven until good ol' Jesus died for everyone's sins. Thus, people who died before Jesus all went sraight to hell-- including Moses, Noah, Joseph, and countless others.
However, even after Jesus' death countless millions were still condemned to rot in hell. This is because thanks to the conventions of Iron Age technology, all the inhabitants of the Americas and Australia, as well as most of Africa and Asia, were ignorant of Yahweh and Jesus until relatively late in history-- only the last five hundred years or so. Even much of Europe was in the dark regarding JEsus for several hundred years after his death, all resulting in countless souls heading straight to hell.
So my questions are as follows: a) am I right in assuming that people who hadn't heard of Jesus and pledged to love him, etc. all- according to Christian doctrine-- rotting in hell; b) if so, how can any Christian think that their god is at all loving just and fair?; c) if not, how does this reconcile with the generally accepted notion that only 'through Jesus' can one get to heaven?; and d) if so or if not, where is the evidence to support this.
Thanks for your help!
In the Bible itself (in the Old Testament) it was possible to get to heaven by living a good life and making the proper burnt offerings (sacrifices) to God. The arrival of Jesus made such sacrifices unnecessary.
People who died before Jesus could attain Heaven.
2 Kings 2:11
"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Daniel 12:1-2
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."
Proverbs 28:18
"Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved: but [he that is] perverse [in his] ways shall fall at once."
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 12:37:44 [Permalink]
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| What gets me is that Jesus lived at all. I mean, what kind of supreme being would give life to beings that could not help but sin, then become outraged when we did just that? What's more, he then impregnated a virgin (no small deal at the time) so she would give birth to His child specificially for the purpose of insuring that child would die a slow and terrible death... so He could forgive the sinners. Just forgive them for Christ's sake (bad pun intended). Not that there was anything to forgive. If He wanted perfect, He should have created perfect. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 17:17:55 [Permalink]
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Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 20:59:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
What gets me is that Jesus lived at all. I mean, what kind of supreme being would give life to beings that could not help but sin, then become outraged when we did just that? What's more, he then impregnated a virgin (no small deal at the time) so she would give birth to His child specificially for the purpose of insuring that child would die a slow and terrible death... so He could forgive the sinners. Just forgive them for Christ's sake (bad pun intended). Not that there was anything to forgive. If He wanted perfect, He should have created perfect.
Amen Sister! The whole thing is so convoluted and illogical that it amazes me that anyone (let alone millions of people) buy it. I guess the lure of eternal bliss is enough to get them to burn their thinking caps. Too bad, since removing the veil of superstition opens up a universe of ideas that makes religious dogma pale in comparison. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 03:06:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed.
Rubish! |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 05:32:17 [Permalink]
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The fact that there are so many diparate replies to this question should make any Christian wonder about the nature of their faith-- how can such a basic question be so difficult to answer?!?
Thus far, we have two extremes, followed by plenty of grey area. I alwasy understood it as Dave W's in-laws have, wherein everyone but the Christians go to hell, regardless of circumstance.
Val Dancer's answer makes some sense, though one still wonders about, say, various Myans, Incas, and so on who didn't have the chance to know Yahweh.
This was addressed to some extent in Robb's link, though I find it rather unsatisfactory as being too great a cop-out. (Basically, it sounds as though you get to heaven as long as you're a Christian or, barring that, if you act according to your innate goodness. Or something.)
Does anyone have some more or less "official" doctrine somewhere that explains this? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 06:04:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
The fact that there are so many diparate replies to this question should make any Christian wonder about the nature of their faith-- how can such a basic question be so difficult to answer?!?
Thus far, we have two extremes, followed by plenty of grey area. I alwasy understood it as Dave W's in-laws have, wherein everyone but the Christians go to hell, regardless of circumstance.
Val Dancer's answer makes some sense, though one still wonders about, say, various Myans, Incas, and so on who didn't have the chance to know Yahweh.
This was addressed to some extent in Robb's link, though I find it rather unsatisfactory as being too great a cop-out. (Basically, it sounds as though you get to heaven as long as you're a Christian or, barring that, if you act according to your innate goodness. Or something.)
Does anyone have some more or less "official" doctrine somewhere that explains this?
According to church doctorine, the Mayans, Incans, and other non-Christians who had never had contact with the concept of Jesus are not saved.
However, the Bible itself is a bit more forgiving.
Romans 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Galatians 6:8
"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Acts 2:21
"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Matthew 19:25-26
"When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
The name of God is a bit hazy. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 07/02/2004 06:06:20 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 13:49:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed.
Rubish!
Rubbish? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 16:35:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed.
Rubish!
What part of it? Give us uninformed a clue... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 11:21:16 [Permalink]
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According to Romans 2:14 "14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves", they are saved if they do what they know is right.
The idea is that God's law is written on the hearts of men. Therefore, if you listen to your heart, you could still to to heaven.
Now, if you're trying to make sense out of it, well, good luck. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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