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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2004 : 09:22:34
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There is growing concern over possible terrorist attacks on our political parties conventions. As one American, as well as to quote our brave war president, as far as the GOP's convention is concerned. "Bring it on!" 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2004 : 09:57:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
There is growing concern over possible terrorist attacks on our political parties conventions. As one American, as well as to quote our brave war president, as far as the GOP's convention is concerned. "Bring it on!"
Heard the actual threat assessment? Some call it "troubling" some call it "discraceful". I note that the threat level has not shifted up.
Could this actually be the same vague threats and known high value targets being used to artificially raise the President's approval rating by cultivating fear?
Hmmmmm. I remain skeptical of President Bully and the rest of the Thugs in his cabinet. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 10:48:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
There is growing concern over possible terrorist attacks on our political parties conventions. As one American, as well as to quote our brave war president, as far as the GOP's convention is concerned. "Bring it on!"
Heard the actual threat assessment? Some call it "troubling" some call it "discraceful". I note that the threat level has not shifted up.
Could this actually be the same vague threats and known high value targets being used to artificially raise the President's approval rating by cultivating fear?
Hmmmmm. I remain skeptical of President Bully and the rest of the Thugs in his cabinet.
Unfortunately, an actual terrorist attack would work in GW's favor, I think. He'd be a shoe-in after that. Or maybe he'd just declare martial law to 'protect' us some more and suspend the elections until we're safer. |
-Chaloobi
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 10:53:03 [Permalink]
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Constant reminders about lurking danger also work in W's favor whether there is a real threat or not. Did anyone catch how at the end of Ridge's announcement he urged regular folk not to panic? See what a good job they're doing? They go on TV to cover their asses and keep the fear going. It's all PR for the President and nothing else. I think that people are just tuning Mr. Ridge out at this point since all of these news conferences where they alert us and then tell us not to worry becomes a huge joke. Only the joke is on us.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 12:44:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Constant reminders about lurking danger also work in W's favor whether there is a real threat or not. Did anyone catch how at the end of Ridge's announcement he urged regular folk not to panic? See what a good job they're doing? They go on TV to cover their asses and keep the fear going. It's all PR for the President and nothing else. I think that people are just tuning Mr. Ridge out at this point since all of these news conferences where they alert us and then tell us not to worry becomes a huge joke. Only the joke is on us.
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Unfortunately, it's working. |
-Chaloobi
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Reluctant Prophet
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 09:16:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
As one American, as well as to quote our brave war president, as far as the GOP's convention is concerned. "Bring it on!"
Real nice, ever hear of 'Speak no evil?', especially when it comes to your own fellow citizens, loathe them or not? Wake up, we are at war, and had been for some time, before we openly declared it.
We are at war, and a war president is what is needed. He far from perfect, but at least I know which way this administration is pointed, however crocked the arrow. We may have gone to war over false or misleading intelligence, but at least we finally, and openly, have gone to war.
I think Iraq is a great staging area for a war with Iran, which is also needed if their citizens do not effect their own regieme change.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 09:59:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Reluctant Prophet:
I think Iraq is a great staging area for a war with Iran, which is also needed if their citizens do not effect their own regieme change.
Actually, Iran was becoming more moderate before the war. The people were disillusioned with their rigid theocracy. Our State department was pleased with the progress being made in Iran. All of that changed when we invaded Iraq. What we managed to do is turn them back into hard-line anti-Americans. We gave the hard-liners an opening to exert their influence on Iraqis Shiite population which they have been more than happy to exploit. Furthermore, Iran isn't the leading terrorist country in the area. It is just plan crazy to think we could get away with any kind of invasion of Iran without the world coming down on us. Plus, Iraq doesn't want us. Or haven't you noticed that?
Diplomacy was working in Iran. But I supposed to some, War is more fun. I mean, If we are the most powerful nation on the earth, we should be kicking some butt, right? When Bush called himself a war president and I think we can take him at his word. That is exactly why he has to go. Most presidents would not use war as the first, or even the second resort. War is a last resort. This administrations arrogance is costing lives and prestige.
And by the way, we didn't go to Iraq to free the people there. And you know it! As all the other reasons they gave for going, fell, they just changed the spin. There are repressive regimes all over the world. Should we invade all of them? Some of them, like Iraq, we had a hand in creating. Why not just close the State Department. Diplomacy is dead under this administration.
I will not be satisfied until, to paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson, I am gnawing on Bushes skull... He may go down as the most incompetent and dangerous president we have ever had. War President indeed. Lunatic is more like it... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 15:10:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Real nice, ever hear of 'Speak no evil?'
Cute. If the Bush administration followed your advice we wouldn't be talking about this. Maybe you should write Bush a letter and tell him where to stick it.
Great idea!
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 15:15:07 [Permalink]
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Wait a minute? War with Iran? Is someone smoking something? Maybe my math skills are better than others but I have been reading that we don't have enough troops to keep Iraq under control and the retention rate is falling and some are discussing a draft to just to cover our asses in Iraq. Over 1,000 US citizens have died for Halliburton in Iraq with many, many times that wounded. Who's sending what to Iran and who's gonna fricken pay for it? Ideological fantasies are one thing but reality is another.
We don't have any money for a war in Iran. Bush won't get the votes. We don't have enough troops. We'll have our own regime change soon anyway.
We aren't going into Iran so get over it.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 15:44:50 [Permalink]
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Yeah, FINALLY we went to war. Those Clintonian years of peace were dreadful. Thank heaven we have a wartime president now.
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 16:12:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Reluctant Prophet
quote:
As one American, as well as to quote our brave war president, as far as the GOP's convention is concerned. "Bring it on!"
Real nice, ever hear of 'Speak no evil?', especially when it comes to your own fellow citizens, loathe them or not? Wake up, we are at war, and had been for some time, before we openly declared it.
We are at war, and a war president is what is needed. He far from perfect, but at least I know which way this administration is pointed, however crocked the arrow. We may have gone to war over false or misleading intelligence, but at least we finally, and openly, have gone to war.
Yes. The reasons to go to war were false, they were lies and covered up in rethorics... but thank goodness he finally went to war anyway? Ok.
quote:
I think Iraq is a great staging area for a war with Iran, which is also needed if their citizens do not effect their own regieme change.
Wow, you really do believe it was for liberation of the Iraqi people they did it? I thought it was only a few people who thought so... of which the majority was working for FOX Views. I suppose Rumsfeld is a much better person now than he was during the 80's when he didn't seem to have that much of a problem with Saddam.
It's a war alright. But a war against terrorism? A bit misdirected, wouldn't you say? When did you attack Pakistan? Oh, no, that's true; they are your friends now, aren't they? Yes, your allies in the war against terrorism, ironic as it is, or if it was for liberation... certainly not the liberation of the Pakistani people. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 18:12:11 [Permalink]
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"We are at war, and a war president is what is needed. He far from perfect, but at least I know which way this administration is pointed, however crocked the arrow. We may have gone to war over false or misleading intelligence, but at least we finally, and openly, have gone to war."
We are not at war. Don't your remember the president landing on the aircraft carrier with the sign behind it saying "Mission Accomplished"? The wars over, its been over for a year. Of course, many U.S. soilders and the Iraqi people are still being killed, but the President said the war was over.
And Mark pretty much took the words out of my mouth with:
"Yes. The reasons to go to war were false, they were lies and covered up in rethorics... but thank goodness he finally went to war anyway? Ok."
Do you not realize that people are dieing, losing their lives, over FALSE evidence. Man, I know there are some really bad people in the world, but a person who is glad that people are being killed for no reason, well, that just takes the cake. Hitler had a reason, even if it was wrong. You don't. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Reluctant Prophet
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 18:39:46 [Permalink]
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This war started many years ago, whether declared and/or recognized or not. How long has there been the scream for the blood of Americans? It may be louder now, but it is still the same scream. The Bush foreign policy did not cause the screaming, it started long ago.
As far as reform in Iran, they have had many years to sweep up and to quit exporting terrorism. Will it take one nuke in the states courtesy of Iran for people to wake up, or will it take 29.
I said nothing about the war being for the liberation of Iraq. That is just more spin. Pointing spin out is rhetoric, because that is all politics has become. Or has it always been that way?
First resort, seconed resort? Peaceful Clinton years? Hostages in Iran, Barracks in Beruit, Embassies in several areas, the USS Cole, Osama in Somalia. Just off of the top of my head. War is war, declared or not. The choices are offensive, or defensive. There is no middle ground.
But then again, you're right. I must be smoking something to think that 1) enogh people can recognize this, and 2) this country could pull together to do something about it. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 18:58:51 [Permalink]
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"This war started many years ago, whether declared and/or recognized or not."
Thats known as a low redefinition. If you want to say that there has been fighting, thats fine, but it hasn't been a war. There is a really good article on this here:
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/badmovesprint.php?num=35
"The Bush foreign policy did not cause the screaming, it started long ago."
Yes, it must have started when George Washington first lead the U.S. to independance. Administrations always blame the previous ones, so everything must be George Washingtons fault.
"As far as reform in Iran, they have had many years to sweep up and to quit exporting terrorism. Will it take one nuke in the states courtesy of Iran for people to wake up, or will it take 29."
Its not "why should we go after Iran" thats the question, its "why shouldn't we go after someone else?" Funny of you to mention nukes, cause as far as I know, North Korea is the only country to have nukes that are an enemy to the U.S. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't been paying so much attention to news recently.
So if it was known that there were no weapons of any kind, nuclear, chemical, or biological, at the time before we invaded Iraq, would you have supported to go to war with them?
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Reluctant Prophet
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 04:54:09 [Permalink]
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I like the article, but I do not consider the my use low redefinition, and do not think the enemy does either.
If we were to bring Washington into this, it should be to point out his warning against foreign entanglements, and not in post hoc fallacy.
When did the screaming start, again I don't know. During colonization, or post WWII kingmaking, or when Jacob stole Essu's birthright, or for our support of Isreal? America is just the latest target of the screaming.
North Korea is another serious problem which I was sidestepping at this time. But now that they are bought into this dicussion, the great leader has needed to be removed for many years. Do they already have nukes? I know they are diligently working that way, as is Iran. Neither country is an enemy of the US alone, but of many other nations that fail to openly recognize it. Yet North Korea is not openly threatening the use of these weapons, as groups that are sponsored by Iran are.
Yes, I would have supported the invasion of Iraq. I think bending to UN will during the 'Gulf War' was a mistake, and that this is the same war we are now finishing up after Iraq's failure to live up to the demands placed on it by the UN to avert the invasion then. Not going back in force when they went after the Kurds, continued hostile actions in the safe havens and no fly zones, and kicking the inspectors out? Just more reasons to hold the UN security council in contempt. Funny you should bring Hitler into it. The UN reminds me of most of the European countries while Hitler began his 'reasoning'.
Am I glad we did it yes. It had to be done, and this debate should be older then this. Am I glad it took probable false pretenses to do it, no. I learned very young to take what the federal government says with a grain of salt. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 18:44:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
We are at war, and a war president is what is needed.
Where is the barf emoticon?
quote:
I learned very young to take what the federal government says with a grain of salt.
Obviously you contradict yourself here. You stroke the Bush for going ahead and invading Iraq and killing 10K+ Iraqis, buy into the Bush statements about war and needing a war president (barf), and then you lay that line on us?
Isn't that just a bit inconsistent?
As for Iran, I suggest you do some research before you plop anymore turds in here on that topic. As has been said, the people of Iran were on the verge of having a moderate revolution. Our invasion of Iraq screwed that.... as the hardliners in control used the opportunity of a national security threat to crack down.... hrrmmmm sounds kinda familliar huh? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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