|
|
|
|
coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2004 : 07:04:20
|
Politicians like to start with a bit of humor, I thought I would try it. Accountants A and B worked at desks side by side for thirty years. Accountant A dies. B had observed for thirty years that every morning A would go to his desk open the drawer and meditate a few seconds then close the drawer and start work. B decided to check this out and went to A's desk opened the drawer and saw taped to the bottom of the drawer this message: Debit on the Left—an expense. Credit on the Right—owed me.
George Simmel (1858-1918). A pioneer in the field of sociology wrote “The Philosophy of Money”. I have been reading a small selection from this book entitled “Individual Freedom”.
“The development of each human fate can be represented as an uninterrupted alternation between bondage and release, obligation and freedom.” “Each obligation that does not exist with regard to a mere idea corresponds to the right of someone else to make demands. For this reason, moral philosophy always identifies ethical freedom with those obligations imposed by an ideal or social imperative or by one's own
ego.”
When reading I often record an idea that resonates for me. The following is just such a beautiful paragraph: “All men, like all nations, are tested twice in the moral realm: first by what they do, then by what they make of what they do. The condition of guilt, a sense of one's own guilt, denotes a kind of second chance; men are, as if by a kind of grace, given a chance to repay to the living what it is they find themselves owing the dead.”
“Follow the money”. For our purpose we might change this adage to “Follow the obligation”. Perhaps a good way to analyze ‘freedom' is to analyze ‘obligation'.
We might say that, at birth our ‘pie chart' shows full freedom and zero obligation. Since this might be considered as a zero sum game: our parent's ‘pie chart' might debit freedom and credit obligation. Maybe this is not a zero sum game. Maybe debits do not have to equal credits.
Do the dead still have a balance sheet in this game? Does the creditor or the debtor determine obligation? If they disagree what is the court of last resort?
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 03:23:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Do the dead still have a balance sheet in this game?
I don't think so. Every memory that took a lot of energy to collect are lost if not shared. Entropy will get all of us eventually.
quote:
Does the creditor or the debtor determine obligation? If they disagree what is the court of last resort?
Who are the creditor and the debtor?
The "last resort" is a party where the worm-dudes have the most fun*.
*(Red Dwarf connection) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
 |
|
|
coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 13:19:07 [Permalink]
|
Dr Mabuse
George Simmel theorizes that life is a continuous string of obligation and freedom. We are speaking of moral obligations. “..[M]oral philosophy always identifies ethical freedom with those obligations imposed by an ideal or social imperative or by one's own ego.” Every one of us is constantly clearing one obligation and taking on another. The nature of the obligations constantly changes. Our obligation may be in various forms. For every obligation there is some entity that possesses that obligation. The debtor is the one who owes the obligation and the creditor is the one to whom the obligation is owed.
Society is the holder of the obligation that each of us owes as a citizen to obey the laws. When society determines through a judicial process that I have not obeyed the law I am sent to prison. When society decides I have “filled my obligation to society” I am released from prison.
As a parent I have obligations to my children. As an employee I have an obligation to my employer likewise that employer has obligations to the employee. The CEO of Enron has an obligation to society beyond the legal constraints that he is held responsible for.
It seems to me that we can map out our ‘freedom' better by focusing upon our obligations and to whom those obligations are owed than by any other method. I think this provides us with a clearer understanding of ethics and the concept of freedom. Follow the obligation.
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 02:12:21 [Permalink]
|
I think I'm already doing that.
By choosing obligations that are fun to complete, or giving me some other advantage. But also by trying to manipulating my mindset to like obligations that I did not initially like. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 06:08:27 [Permalink]
|
“moral philosophy always identifies ethical freedom with those obligations imposed by an ideal or social imperative or by one's own ego”.
I am not confident that we can pick and choose our obligations so easily. Simmel indicates that we are burdened by obligations resulting from “an ideal or social imperative or by one's own ego”.
What are some obligations imposed upon us by an ideal? Citizens of America “are committed to the realization of the democratic ideal”. I suggest “The Promise of American Life” by Herbert Croly as a valuable reading for those concerned about this question.
What are some obligations resulting from a social imperative? I suspect that environmental protection may be such an imperative. I suspect that stewardship of the land might be such an obligation. I think that CEOs are under some form of social obligation.
What does our own ego force upon us? I suspect the individual who wrote the paragraph I quoted in my original post, what we owe the dead, might have felt the force of obligation from the ego.
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 15:31:46 [Permalink]
|
Stewardship of the Land indicates an obligation to the not-yet-living, so what?
Edited to add:
quote:
Citizens of America “are committed to the realization of the democratic ideal”.
Really? Then please explain to me how someone like G.W Bush got to be the president of the US?
"Citizens of America" can't be that committed. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 08/02/2004 15:35:42 |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 15:47:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Stewardship of the Land indicates an obligation to the not-yet-living, so what?
Edited to add:
quote:
Citizens of America “are committed to the realization of the democratic ideal”.
Really? Then please explain to me how someone like G.W Bush got to be the president of the US?
"Citizens of America" can't be that committed.
Allow me to both refute coberst's assertion and explain the bad karma which allowed GWB into office.
Any assertion which claims the US is a Democracy is flat out wrong. It is a Constitutional Republic.
The intelligencia of the US is committed to a democratic ideal which is closest to a Republic. The sheep people continue to be committed to political parties and charismatic leaders/fearmongers.
The 2000 fiasco dealt with one state having enough sway so that it's election difficulties (some would call it fraud) were magnified to a national scale. The partisan bickering which followed called into question the legitamacy of the election. A quirk of the electoral college which is not likely to occur again. Only one other time has an elected President done so without carrying a majority of the popular vote. The electoral college was supposed to normalize the weight of the various states and population centers to force politicians to pay attention to their needs.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
