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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2004 : 12:46:58
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During one of my dog training sessions this morning I went into the subject of how dogs can't tell "good" from "bad" in the same manner that humans do. Somehow this launched into a discussion of morality. I stated that, in my opinion, only a more evolved species could comprehend the notion of good and evil. One fellow asked me if I had read Michael Shermer's book "The Science of Good and Evil", I haven't (I have read his book, "Why People Believe Weird Things"). Anyway, has anyone here read this book?
The notion that morality is a result of evolution seems fairly reasonable to me.
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"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 13:28:11 [Permalink]
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No, I haven't, but personally, I believe dogs and other nonhuman animals don't understand the difference between "good" and "evil" because they aren't capable of understanding WHY these ideas should exist. To a human, something good vs. something bad is capable of doing many things that provoke specific kinds of human behavior. For example, George Bush says gay marriage is a sin, because he does not want Americans to marry those of the same sex. To some, that is "evil." Although, in any detailed debate, it's easy to bring up arguments against either topic discussed as being good or evil. Why do I think gay marriage isn't "evil?" Well, looking at it from certain angles, animals in their natural habitats will attempt to fornicate with the same-sexed animal from its species, and in the example of your post, animals would not do something "good" or "evil," for they don't know the difference. So if a non-human animals performs this act, why should it be prevented by human animals, insignificant of the instinctive value it places upon our species? Point 1, many different kinds of animals have "gay sex." Furthermore, if something is to be considered "evil," the harm in which this evil causes should be evaluated. The only harm gay marriage can propose is the destruction of fundamentalist beliefs, those that W. is well known for. Point 2, gay marriage doesn't seem to cause any real harm. Also, to be unbiased in this particular argument, it's decent to look at why gay marriage is "good." If gay marriage is banned, that would mean that strict laws are continuously being enforced, despite the first and second points, or, for no real reason, other than to have grasping authority. Too much authority is widely considered "evil," disregarding an idea of mine that any "evil" act is a preposterous assumption. Point 3, banning gay marriage is more evil than gay marriage itself. All this is seen by example from satans_mom's perspective, perspectives which may be considered various things, such as "wrong," "evil," "uneducated," or "informative," because the ideas that humans possess range from person to person.
So in conclusion, I will propose the idea that yes, morality does come in form of evolution, because of this reason, and not this reason alone, that as we progress as people, the knowledge base of a public is made known to its leaders, opinions that are widely shared (in a democracy) are constructed into laws, and the laws regulate the public. So morality could be considered a "simple form of control."
If we were more evolved or less evolved I could see how we would have no need for morals. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 16:09:38 [Permalink]
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It depends entirely upon your definition of 'morals'.
Virtually all social animals, of which we are but a single species, have a code of conduct in their societies, and these codes are enforced by the senior members. Any troop of baboons is a good example. Indeed, it is not unreasonable to speculate that herd/pack dinosaur populations had much the same. And not just so-called 'higher' species; ants, termites, and many species of bees and wasps have a strong, social code.
For any society to be cohesive, there must be certain behavioral rules. Otherwise, the society will fragment, to the detrement of all.
So, the concept of 'morals', is an ancient one, dating back to the very first social species. I think that the main difference between they and us is merely one of degree. And of course we, suffering the curse of sapience, have made ours needlessly complicated.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 13:04:23 [Permalink]
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| From what I gathered the issue isn't over the idea of a code of behavior but rather the concept of inherent "good" and "evil". The concept that something can be "good" or "evil" in and of itself so to speak. Shermer's book wasn't in our library and I may just end up buying a copy! I'd like to talk to someone who has already read it if possible. |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 14:25:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by N C More
I'd like to talk to someone who has already read it if possible.
Then you probably should have posted it in the book folder. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 16:30:17 [Permalink]
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| As soon as I've read it I will post a review. I didn't see this book listed there, just wondered if someone had read it or knew specifically what Mr. Shermer's basic theory was in relation to the concept of inherent "good' and "evil". |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 17:04:29 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
Then you probably should have posted it in the book folder.
Nah. The Book Review folder is specifically for "hey, read this book" kinds of posts, and not "what does everyone else think of this book?" kinds of posts. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 08:18:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by N C More
From what I gathered the issue isn't over the idea of a code of behavior but rather the concept of inherent "good" and "evil". The concept that something can be "good" or "evil" in and of itself so to speak. Shermer's book wasn't in our library and I may just end up buying a copy! I'd like to talk to someone who has already read it if possible.
I don't believe that there is such a thing as inherently good, or evil. They are social constructs, and will depend on our society's (as well as our own) point of view. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 10:51:56 [Permalink]
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| From what I know it is Mr. Shermer's stand that there is no inherent "good" and "evil" and that rather than being defined by a supreme being these concepts are a product of our evolution. Needless to say, this has not made Mr. Shermer very popular with some religious people! I'm still looking for a copy of the book and am just about ready to go out and buy one. |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 11:22:15 [Permalink]
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Mr. Shermer isn't popular with some religious people for a variety of reasons. 
I'm going out on a limb, here, but I'm going to bet that The Science of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule is an expansion of Shermer's own 1996 article, The Secular Sphinx: The Riddle of Ethics Without Religion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 18:40:16 [Permalink]
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I'll let you know as I just obtained a copy tonight!  |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 14:16:35 [Permalink]
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| I think you ought to read it then write a review for the Book folder, as Dave W. suggests. It sounds very interesting in actuality. Perhaps I'll look for it myself in the library, or download it onto my computer... I never like to spend money on such things unless I'm convinced it's worth it. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 12:54:32 [Permalink]
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Update, I'm about a third of the way into The Science of Good and Evil and so far I think Mr. Shermer is making a good case for his premise. I'll try to sum up his basic thesis. Mr. Shermer postulates that morality actually does exist outside the human mind in the sense that it is a universal human trait. Human evolution created morality over hundreds of thousands of years. Our Paleolithic ancestors created moral sentiments and we modern humans inherit and then fine tune them according to our time period. So, in his model morality exists beyond us as a product of evolution.
That said, morality must have arisen long before religion took credit for the concept! |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 15:49:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by N C More
During one of my dog training sessions this morning I went into the subject of how dogs can't tell "good" from "bad" in the same manner that humans do. Somehow this launched into a discussion of morality. I stated that, in my opinion, only a more evolved species could comprehend the notion of good and evil. One fellow asked me if I had read Michael Shermer's book "The Science of Good and Evil", I haven't (I have read his book, "Why People Believe Weird Things"). Anyway, has anyone here read this book?
The notion that morality is a result of evolution seems fairly reasonable to me.
The bible says we know good and evil because we rebelled against God. How can a lawless scientific based radical religion such as evolution promote morality?? Where does evolution steer a man to the ten commandments, the core of morality??? Evolution states plainly that we are nothing more than chaotic chaos! Yet somehow we managed just to be male and female as stated in scripture!! The chances of evolution being true are as good as me winning the lottery for the next one million years!!! Anti-God, pro-abortion, bible hating liberal democrates live in Holleywood. They are very powerful!!! In holly wood you can get fired for believing in God!!! Last time I checked nobody got fired for believing in the of 'Origin of Species'!!! To many questions, not enough answers and too many theories!!!! In fact so many theries scientific men (most millionarres form book sales and lectures) have to meet together to fiqure out the best road to take for any givin twist in conformity!!!!
'The living know that they shall die, the dead know nothing!!!' |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 16:12:39 [Permalink]
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Velrch? Back again?
quote:
Where does evolution steer a man to the ten commandments, the core of morality???
We find that in history, many laws in the Ten Commandments were in place before the actual Ten Commandments. For example, it was illegal to kill and steal in Babylon. We also find that prehistoirc men (those ones that lived before you think the world was created, Verlch) also had moral. The lived in groups, and there were competing groups. This is where I would like to think the morals of friendship and enemy comes from, and also being helpful. They helped humans survive, as sticking together makes them much stronger than indiviuals.
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Evolution states plainly that we are nothing more than chaotic chaos!
Another misconception on evolution, but we have told you this many times and you still reject it. I am not about to do it again.
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Yet somehow we managed just to be male and female as stated in scripture!
Huh? The fact that the people who wrote the Bible knew that there are males and females is important? How so?
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The chances of evolution being true are as good as me winning the lottery for the next one million years!
No Verlch, thats the chance of you knowing what the actual chance of evolution is.
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Anti-God, pro-abortion, bible hating liberal democrates live in Holleywood.
Wow... hold on one minute... let me stop laughing...
Ok there, good. I guess my first thought would be "so what?", but then again, why do you think this? Mel Gibson lives in Hollywood, is he one? There have been many films made showing the Bible is a positive light (or everyone else in a negative light). I have yet to see a movie with a theme on aborition, and the only movie I have seen that makes fun of the Bible is Dogma (a great movie btw, check it out).
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In holly wood you can get fired for believing in God!
So how many times did Mel get fired, Verlch?
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To many questions, not enough answers and too many theories!
I'm sorry that you think that a believe in an all powerful being who simplifies the universe down to "God did it" is a correct view of the world in which we live in. Science has always and will always be about questions. When we run out of them, I think that will be a truely boring world. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 08/24/2004 16:14:20 |
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