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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 08/06/2004 : 10:42:55
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The high school graduate in the United States leaves school having learned the basic skills society has decided is necessary for all citizens. Most college graduates leave school with a firm grasp of the paradigms and algorithms of their chosen profession. The graduates of our educational system have a large database of knowledge that will form the foundation of their success in the business world.
The database is full of answers without questions. Our students have seldom studied questions. Are questions important? If questions are important how does the young person learn to develop the ability to develop questions and how does that young person learn to judge the value of different questions?
Those are difficult questions.
I would say that societies in general are dominated by an ideology that is keen on answers but not so keen on questions. This dominant ideology is focused upon the easy flow of business and considers questions to inhibit that easy flow. Society is probably not a good place to look for guidance when seeking answers about questions.
If I have no knowledge of the question can I understand the answer? If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the question?
I suspect one way to develop questions is to focus the intellect upon one matter of interest and give it a great deal of thought. Such activity often leads to questions. Such questions lead to research, which leads to questions…
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 06:00:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I suspect one way to develop questions is to focus the intellect upon one matter of interest and give it a great deal of thought. Such activity often leads to questions. Such questions lead to research, which leads to questions…
Is this a question? Or an answer? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 06:54:01 [Permalink]
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Um, an answer without a question would be a fact. It became a fact due to questions asked and answered previously.
I think that those youngsters today that are not brain-damaged by the media are no less curious than those of the past. My grandkids will keep you on your toes with questions for which you'd better come up with at least a promise to look it up.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 07:04:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I suspect one way to develop questions is to focus the intellect upon one matter of interest and give it a great deal of thought. Such activity often leads to questions. Such questions lead to research, which leads to questions…
Is this a question? Or an answer?
I would think of it as being a suggestion rather than an answer or a question. I suspect the road to questions is a probing intellect and an active curiosity. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 12:11:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Are questions important?
Those are difficult questions.
If I have no knowledge of the question can I understand the answer? If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the question?
And of course, these questions arise:
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the question? If I have no knowledge of the question can I understand the answer? 
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the answer?
If I have no knowledge of the knowledge can I understand the knowledge?
If I have no question of the knowledge can I understand the answer?
If I have no answer of the question can I understand the knowledge?
If I question the understanding of the knowledge of the answer can I understand the question?
If I understand the question of the understanding of the knowledge of the answer to the question, can I understand the knowledge of the answer to the question?
Or we can return to what is historically presumed to be among the primary questions: "Huh?"
Maybe we can just start with questions & answers. Is this a question, or an answer?
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 17:38:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
And of course, these questions arise:
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the question? If I have no knowledge of the question can I understand the answer?
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the answer?
If I have no knowledge of the knowledge can I understand the knowledge?
If I have no question of the knowledge can I understand the answer?
If I have no answer of the question can I understand the knowledge?
If I question the understanding of the knowledge of the answer can I understand the question?
If I understand the question of the understanding of the knowledge of the answer to the question, can I understand the knowledge of the answer to the question?
Oh my! I'm so confused! All I can think about is this. |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 18:45:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by N C More
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
And of course, these questions arise:
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the question? If I have no knowledge of the question can I understand the answer?
If I have no knowledge of the answer can I understand the answer?
If I have no knowledge of the knowledge can I understand the knowledge?
If I have no question of the knowledge can I understand the answer?
If I have no answer of the question can I understand the knowledge?
If I question the understanding of the knowledge of the answer can I understand the question?
If I understand the question of the understanding of the knowledge of the answer to the question, can I understand the knowledge of the answer to the question?
Oh my! I'm so confused! All I can think about is this.
Damn, but I miss Abbott and Costello! They were the best.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2004 : 18:49:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
[quote]
Damn, but I miss Abbott and Costello! They were the best.
Yes, they were among the masters. I bow to their superb logic. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 06:10:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I would think of it as being a suggestion rather than an answer or a question. I suspect the road to questions is a probing intellect and an active curiosity.
Actually, I was kidding-- I really don't get the point of your post. Are you really just suggesting that we should all think more so that we can arrive at more questions? Because I really don't think you're the first one to come up with that idea. In fact, I'm pretty sure that this has been tried by every person who's ever been to graduate school. Ever.
But perhaps I've missed something. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 09:38:52 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist
I do not claim that anything I say is new. I read a great deal and cannot tell where the info from one reading joins with that of another. I do not wait to post some of my thoughts until I am confident that I have something to say that has never been said before.
I suspect many readers have never been to graduate school before. I suspect many readers have seldom if ever given thought to the importance of developing questions. If this capability is often taught in graduate school that would indicate its importance it seems to me.
I think that a liberal democracy is dependent upon an intellectually sophisticated population. I feel that our forums just like our TV is directed at the lowest common denominator. I think that those of us who are fortunate enough to have learned the importance of self-education plus much formal education should take every opportunity to bring into play concepts that are important for every citizen to regard with care. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 11:48:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I suspect many readers have never been to graduate school before. I suspect many readers have seldom if ever given thought to the importance of developing questions. If this capability is often taught in graduate school that would indicate its importance it seems to me.
I think that a liberal democracy is dependent upon an intellectually sophisticated population. I feel that our forums just like our TV is directed at the lowest common denominator. I think that those of us who are fortunate enough to have learned the importance of self-education plus much formal education should take every opportunity to bring into play concepts that are important for every citizen to regard with care.
Yeah, fine. But I think everyone who regularly reads/posts at this website agrees with you. I mean, part of being a skeptic is to look at the information that is presented and to ask questions about it: is that right? what would I expect the evidence to look like if it were right? where is this information coming from? is there another way to look at this?
People are doing this all the time right here on this little website.
Also, I'm concerned about your linking TV to thie website. TV is a big medium with lots of different functions: people watch it for entertainment (e.g. sports, or dramas), news, art (e.g. plays, operas, concerts), and many other things. There is no requirement that TV should play to the highest common denominator, nor should there be. After all, sometimes people want to spend an hour or two watching mindless trash as they unwind from a day of work/study/whatever.
This site is different. People come here to 'belong' to a community of like-minded thinkers (as much as one can belong to a community via the internet). There are all sorts of views-- from creationists to 'evolutionists', but all enjoy questioning the data they are confronted with on a daily basis and sharing those questions on the forums. How this "is directed at the lowest common denominator" is unclear to me. Perhaps you'd like to expand upon that... |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 13:13:40 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist
I want to encourage those individuals who have the education and understand of these matters to take the knowledge and understanding to lift the level of sophistication in all those forums that are not blessed with such members. As you mentioned it was in graduate school that you encountered the education that focused on questions.
Most forums do not have individuals who are educated in philosophy. If you ask ten individuals with degrees in philosophy to give you a definition of philosophy you will get ten different answers, but I suspect each of them will accentuate that philosophy is mostly about questions. The more one focuses their attention on understand the fundamentals of all knowledge and understanding the more that person will recognize the importance in developing questions.
When I linked TV and Internet forums I did so to display my impression that most TV programs are directed at teenagers it seems. Most forums are likewise directed.
I understand your feeling insulted that I might be denigrating this forum but that was not my intention. I thought you were chastising me for posting thoughts that were challenging. I post challenging thoughts as an effort to encourage everyone who is capable to attempt to lift the general intellectual level of all forums. I recognize that this forum is different. I would not challenge members of most forums because they would not have the capacity to help spread more challenging concepts.
I think you too quickly tried to wear shoes that were not meant for your feet.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 20:13:13 [Permalink]
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coberst, I believe I can speak for the staff of this forum in saying that the SFN is engaged in attempting to encourage and promote critical thinking and even "self-learning" amongst everyone, not just the participants of Internet forums. You may not see things that way, but just because the effort isn't apparent to you does not mean that it does not exist. I submit that you have failed to notice the effort simply by failing to read this web site in a rigorous manner.
In other words, you are "encouraging" those already within the effort. And doing so - through posts which are ambiguous or otherwise less than crystal clear - does not help anything.
Once again, you are actively posting things which will have an effect which is largely contrary to your stated goals. I predict that you will consider this criticism - which is intended to get you to actively think about your efforts - as nothing but nay-saying by a "heckler," and I further predict that you will fail to respond to these thoughts in an appropriately thoughtful manner. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 21:38:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I want to encourage those individuals who have the education and understand of these matters to take the knowledge and understanding to lift the level of sophistication in all those forums that are not blessed with such members. As you mentioned it was in graduate school that you encountered the education that focused on questions.
Actually, it's my questions that led me to graduate school.
quote:
Most forums do not have individuals who are educated in philosophy.
And for this, I am happy. Were there a forum that were frequented with philosophers, I'm sure I'd go elsewhere.
quote:
If you ask ten individuals with degrees in philosophy to give you a definition of philosophy you will get ten different answers, but I suspect each of them will accentuate that philosophy is mostly about questions. The more one focuses their attention on understand the fundamentals of all knowledge and understanding the more that person will recognize the importance in developing questions.
So you think more people should be developing and asking questions. Great. That's just what people do here at Skeptic Friends. You should like it here.
quote:
When I linked TV and Internet forums I did so to display my impression that most TV programs are directed at teenagers it seems. Most forums are likewise directed.
Huh? There have to be literally a thousand channels out there, and each channel must air hundreds of different programs each week-- all with different aims and target audiences. And as vast as that sounds, the available internet forums must be almost limitless. Though I cannot say that I've seen every show on TV, or surfed every forum on the internet, I seriously doubt that "most" are directed at teens.
Any in any case, so what? Do teens not ask questions?
quote:
I thought you were chastising me for posting thoughts that were challenging. I post challenging thoughts as an effort to encourage everyone who is capable to attempt to lift the general intellectual level of all forums.
Oh puh-leese. Your posts are only challenging when they ramble on about strange pseudo-intellectual ideas. And by "challenging" I mean "challenging to get through the whole thing without getting bored and moving to a new thread." But most of the time, you just post stuff that is already pretty well understood.
For example, in this thread, you've argued that people know lots of stuff but don't ask questions. You suggested that we all start thinking about questions. But of course, this is a site for skeptics who, almost by the definition, question things.
It's not much of a challenge to ask people to do something they already do.
quote:
I recognize that this forum is different. I would not challenge members of most forums because they would not have the capacity to help spread more challenging concepts.
So here's where I'm challenged-- challenged to understand what you're saying. If you understand that a) this forum does feature people who ask questions, and b) that most forums do not and therefore you don't challenge them to ask questions, then I have a question for you: why post here in the first place?
quote:
I think you too quickly tried to wear shoes that were not meant for your feet.
I'll just go barefoot, then... |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 05:12:21 [Permalink]
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Problem solving is a creative process. It begins with recognition of a problem and ends with a verification of the solution. It is a creative act because if the solution was at hand there would be no problem. This is to be considered from the subject's point of view. There may be somewhere in the world a solution to this very problem but if unknown to the subject it does not exist for that subject.
The three steps to a solution are formulation of problem (question), method of solution and answer. The spectrum of problems range from one with known method of solution and a recognized formulation of solution, to one that might be called ‘discovered situations'.
A problem that qualifies as ‘discovered situations' requires the subject to discover the problem and there are no solution algorithms (established steps) for reaching a solution. In this extreme end of the spectrum the subject becomes a ‘problem finder'.
When I speak of questions and answers I am speaking of those in which the subject becomes a ‘problem finder'.
If you compared this to the creative act of painting you might say that one end of the spectrum is a ‘paint by numbers' to the other end is an original Picaso.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 06:28:25 [Permalink]
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I wrote:quote:
...I further predict that [coberst] will fail to respond to these thoughts in an appropriately thoughtful manner.
I hate being right.
(Well, not really. ) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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