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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  05:55:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
I have to say that this whole thread feels mean-spirited and unkind to me. I tried to make light of it, but it didn't help.

Whether or not coberst's posts are "public", whether or not you like or agree with him, it's not cool in my world to create an entire thread demeaning him. Especially on a board that is usually so civil and respectful.

And please...don't do the "blame the victim" thing by posting yet another critique of his posts. Y'all are responsible for every mean thing you say and do, regardless of what prompted it.

Y'know, sometimes things like tolerance and kindness can trump skepticism. Sometimes.
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:09:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
Renae,

Some would say ignoring him is mean spirited and unkind. Some would say banning him is mean spirited and unkind.

No matter what action is taken in a conflict, some people will find it mean spirited and unkind.

I do not believe that Dave is being mean spirited or unkind. He is actually giving coberst exactly what he craves while giving us a great analysis of a new posting phenomenon on the Internet. That's my opinion on the matter.

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:21:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
"Giving coberst what he craves."? You're kidding, right? Who on earth would crave someone psychoanalyzing their posts across multiple forums, then concluding they're a fanatic, a nut, etc.? Only a masochist would crave that.

Not responding to someone on a forum is not mean-spirited or unkind. Many times I don't respond to a particular post or poster for many reasons: I'm too busy, I'm not interested in the topic, I don't understand where they're coming from, I'm too tired/irritable to respond constructively, I have little or nothing of value to contribute, I don't know how I feel about the matter, I'm not well-read enough on that subject, etc. No one is harmed by me turning off the computer and doing something else.

How would you all feel if this coberst was your father or grandfather being treated so cruelly?
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N C More
Skeptic Friend

53 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:33:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send N C More a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick


Interesting how you pull out the tired cliche about not saying something unless you have something good to say. That is religious nonsense, and I wonder why you don't follow your own advice?



Ya know, I never understood that old saying. I mean, am I supposed to keep quiet regarding the activities of Hitler or Usama Bin Laden because I "have nothing nice to say about them"? Don't get me wrong the coberst thing is very, very minor, just annoying but why should I remain quiet even if it's only regarding rudeness? Where's the "cut off"? Should we not speak out regarding rude behavior but it's ok to criticize people with powerful political agendas? It has never made any sense to me.

"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!"
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:33:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Whether or not coberst's posts are "public", whether or not you like or agree with him, it's not cool in my world to create an entire thread demeaning him. Especially on a board that is usually so civil and respectful.


When a faith healer yells at a women that she has been cured of her (I think) spinal cancer, and tells her to get up and run across the stage, and the next day her backbone collapses and she dies 4 months later, that person deserves whatever he has coming at him.

When a person posts across multiple forums the same posts, claims to be a critical thinker but is only the exact opposite, sometimes copying work of others, and not actually wanting to get into conversations about what he posts, well, I say that he deserves what Dave has done.

Was it nice? No. Was is truthful? Absolutely. Sometimes (most of the times), the truth isn't what we want it to be, it isn't nice, but its something that needs to be said. Dave revealed the truth about Coberst's activities, and if it mean its only because Coberst has actually done all this.

"If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"

I like this version better:

"If you don't have anything nice to say, say it really, really, loud."

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Tae Kwon Dan
New Member

1 Post

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:38:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tae Kwon Dan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

"Giving coberst what he craves."? You're kidding, right? Who on earth would crave someone psychoanalyzing their posts across multiple forums, then concluding they're a fanatic, a nut, etc.? Only a masochist would crave that.


You did see him come in and thank Dave for the publicity right?

quote:
How would you all feel if this coberst was your father or grandfather being treated so cruelly?



Cheesey emotional argument and thus inconsequential. I am on a skeptics board right?
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:38:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Ricky, "truth" is a relative thing. Only facts are verifiable, remember?

Second, it didn't "need to be said." That you perceive something to be "the truth" (gag) doesn't mean it needs to be said. Most people begin to understand this as they get older. Maybe you're not old enough yet.

You're blaming the victim, Ricky. And I'm not backing down on this one. I'd hate to see this forum become what so many other forums become--a bedlam of personal attacks and mean-spiritedness.
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:50:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
I'm really not trying to start a fight with you Renae, and we don't know each other well yet, so I will tell you that I am questioning you, not trying to be hard to get along with.

That said, you've now told us we should be nice to coberst because he's old, and not take Ricky seriously because he's young. How is that reasonable?

I disagree heartily. coberst thanked Dave for what he wrote. He is not insulted by attention - any attention. He loves it. Is that masochistic? I don't know.

As to your assertion that it's not mean to ignore people's posts - if I started topics and no one ever responded to them, which is what the recommendation has been from several people regarding coberst's posts, I would feel completely rejected and hurt.

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
Edited by - SciFi Chick on 08/11/2004 06:54:20
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N C More
Skeptic Friend

53 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  06:55:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send N C More a Private Message
Everything Dave said and posted was the truth. They say, "The truth shall set you free". They also say, "The truth sometimes hurts". So, I will say, Yes, this could be considered "painful" but if taken the right way perhaps it will serve as a "wake up call" for coberst. At the very least it serves to warn others and that alone makes this post useful and valid.

BTW, I would advise those who see this as "cruel" to read all of the posts where people (especially Dave) tried and tried in vain to explain things to coberst. I didn't see any responses that were initially "mean". It was only after extreme frustration that people (myself included) began to use humor in order to point out the rude and condescending behavior of this person. In fact, many tried repeatedlyto get through to coberst and I don't think he even now understands or accepts that this is due to his own actions. I see that "Philosophy Forums" just gave up and banned him...is that somehow better?

"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!"
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  07:06:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I have started many topics that no one responded to. It bothers me not at all -- I figure it was just a lack of interest in the subject, nothing personal.

If someone's skin is so thin as to feel badly over a thing as trivial as that, he/she shouldn't do forums.

Me, I'd just as soon Coberst sticks around. While I don't respond to his posts, I still read them and, if a topic of his interests me, that might change.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  07:10:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I have started many topics that no one responded to. It bothers me not at all -- I figure it was just a lack of interest in the subject, nothing personal.

If someone's skin is so thin as to feel badly over a thing as trivial as that, he/she shouldn't do forums.

Me, I'd just as soon Coberst sticks around. While I don't respond to his posts, I still read them and, if a topic of his interests me, that might change.







I didn't say any time someone doesn't respond to a topic I am insulted, I said if it happened EVERY time across a dozen forums. Now, I don't post on a dozen forums, so it's completely hypothetical. My point is that every response to coberst will taken by some people as rude or cruel and insulting. So, do we just decide what's moral based on a majority vote or what?

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  07:19:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
On a related note: Those of you that feel this post is mean, how do you feel about debunking in general? For example, on the Bad Astronomy site, the Bad Astronomer recently debunked Hoagland's claims about Mars. Would you consider that mean spirited or unfair? If so, why? If not, how is that different from this situation?

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  07:32:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Second, it didn't "need to be said." That you perceive something to be "the truth" (gag) doesn't mean it needs to be said. Most people begin to understand this as they get older. Maybe you're not old enough yet.

You're blaming the victim, Ricky. And I'm not backing down on this one. I'd hate to see this forum become what so many other forums become--a bedlam of personal attacks and mean-spiritedness.


When someone posts multiple things across dozens of boards with no intent to discuss them as Coberst did/does, something definitely needs to be said.

As for blaming the victim, if someone takes a knife and stabes themself with it, then claims to be the vitcim, I am of course going to blame the victim. Its not like some demonic spirit possed Coberst to write these posts, he did on his own free will. He by no means is a victim.

Personal attacks can be justified in some situations. When a person lies, it is prefectly fine to portray them as a lier, as that is what they have done. Dave has portrayed Coberst as what he really is.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  07:49:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I have started many topics that no one responded to. It bothers me not at all -- I figure it was just a lack of interest in the subject, nothing personal.

If someone's skin is so thin as to feel badly over a thing as trivial as that, he/she shouldn't do forums.

Me, I'd just as soon Coberst sticks around. While I don't respond to his posts, I still read them and, if a topic of his interests me, that might change.







I didn't say any time someone doesn't respond to a topic I am insulted, I said if it happened EVERY time across a dozen forums. Now, I don't post on a dozen forums, so it's completely hypothetical. My point is that every response to coberst will taken by some people as rude or cruel and insulting. So, do we just decide what's moral based on a majority vote or what?


And I was not singling you out. Obviously, I could have worded the statement better. Apologies for any offence.

We decide upon what's moral by our own, individual values. Thus, perhaps some folks somewhere are fascinated by Coberst's wisdom and insites and others are not. Some people think I'm funny, others think I'm an ass. No big deal. I myself, find Coberst tedious but not offensive. Until that changes, one way or the other, I'll simply continue to read him without comment.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/11/2004 07:51:15
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  08:11:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And I was not singling you out. Obviously, I could have worded the statement better. Apologies for any offence.


I can get offended, but not that easily.

quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We decide upon what's moral by our own, individual values. Thus, perhaps some folks somewhere are fascinated by Coberst's wisdom and insites and others are not. Some people think I'm funny, others think I'm an ass. No big deal. I myself, find Coberst tedious but not offensive. Until that changes, one way or the other, I'll simply continue to read him without comment.





Okay. I think maybe you're a funny ass, but I haven't gotten to know you well enough yet to be sure.

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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