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coberst
Skeptic Friend

182 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  01:30:42  Show Profile  Visit coberst's Homepage Send coberst a Private Message
Alexis de Tocqueville wrote “Democracy in America”. “The Power of the Majority” is one section of that book that speaks to the power that rests in the hands of the majority in the United States.

Tocqueville writes:

“The authority of a king is purely physical, and it controls the actions of the subject without subduing his private will; but the majority possesses a power which is physical and moral at the same time; it acts upon the will as well as upon the actions of men, and it represses not only all contest, but all controversy.

I know of no country in which there is so little true independence of mind and freedom of discussion as in America…In America, the majority raises very formidable barriers to the liberty of opinion.

The excesses of monarchical power had devised a variety of physical means of oppression: the democratic republics of the present day have rendered it as entirely an affair of the mind, as that will which it is intended to coerce…You will remain among men, but you will be deprived of the rights of mankind. Your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being; and those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest they should be shunned in their turn.”

The personal attacks of the majority come in waves of multiple verbal assaults. One individual, no matter how innocent he might be, is assaulted on all sides while everyone else looks on for fear of being attacked likewise.

There are times when one has an opportunity to see and experience, in real time, happenings that make so clear what we read in history but have no real understanding of. This experience I have had with the savage attacks by the majority on this forum highlight everything Tocqueville spoke of.

I am reminded of watching, on TV, the black man (I think his name was Rodney King) being beaten by a half dozen club wielding police officers and the officers saying later that they had to do it because he was attacking them.

I also am more inclined now to commiserate with those people who live where the police are corrupt. Who do you go to for protection when the cop-on-the-beat is the person assaulting you?

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  03:30:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Yes, I am an idiot. If I wasn't, I'd remain quietly out of this...

Coberst, you were not attacked and to claim so is no more than whining.

You have this peculiar and irritating habit of posting long and to me, rather dull screeds, then rather than discuss it, you paint another coat of the same shade. And you got called on it; that's what happened.

If you have no intention of discussing something, why post it and waste everyone's time? You're not dabbeling in politics, by any chance, are you?

quote:
The personal attacks of the majority come in waves of multiple verbal assaults. One individual, no matter how innocent he might be, is assaulted on all sides while everyone else looks on for fear of being attacked likewise.

There are times when one has an opportunity to see and experience, in real time, happenings that make so clear what we read in history but have no real understanding of. This experience I have had with the savage attacks by the majority on this forum highlight everything Tocqueville spoke of.

I am reminded of watching, on TV, the black man (I think his name was Rodney King) being beaten by a half dozen club wielding police officers and the officers saying later that they had to do it because he was attacking them.

I also am more inclined now to commiserate with those people who live where the police are corrupt. Who do you go to for protection when the cop-on-the-beat is the person assaulting you?


What utter tripe! Are you comparing yourself to Rodney King? I'm sorry, but I fail to see the similarity. And in that case, Mr. King got justice through the courts, as is proper.

Look bro, nobody here wants to persecute you. All we ever ask of anyone is reasonable behavior and reasonable discussion. If you refuse to discuss, then in reality, you've posted blather that you're either unable or unwilling to support or defend. Skeptics hate that.

Thus I implore: quit yer bitchin' and start talkin' to us.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Wulfstan
New Member

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  05:34:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Wulfstan a Private Message
I suggest, Coberst, that you are stubborn and pigheaded and seriously need some help of one sort or another. Plus, you ignored Kil's remarks in the other thread. Besides the fact that I wrote loooong posts to you here and on the BA forum (and you said we agreed on some things), your reply to me yesterday, to "Wolfstun", no less, (not a spelling error, how cute) indicates to me you are simply mucking up the forum folders by needlessly starting new threads regarding the same topic. Apparently, you have no respect for the administrators here and I hope Kil stands by his warning to you. You are acting the fool, not someone who is open to intelligent discussion:

Kil said to Coberst:

A tip: You can start by making your case in the thread you feel the attack has been made. You have started no less than 2 threads to post responses to what you consider to be the offending thread. Not good form and part of the problem.

A warning: If you start another thread pertaining to the original thread, I will lock or delete it. There is just no reason to have all these threads pertaining to one subject.

Pull your finger out, do some actual work and logically defend your style. Now that would be something we could respect, even if we don't agree...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  05:56:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
"There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced the're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw." -- Rush, "The Trees"

Just popped into my head when you posted.

What size cross do you need, coberst?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  06:19:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by coberst

I know of no country in which there is so little true independence of mind and freedom of discussion as in America…In America, the majority raises very formidable barriers to the liberty of opinion.


Could you explain this more? Personally, I am having a hard time understanding how it could be true. It seems to be that in America (and, for instance, in Western Europe) there is a significant diversity of opinion. Much more than in, say, Syria.

What am I missing?
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  06:27:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by coberst

I know of no country in which there is so little true independence of mind and freedom of discussion as in America…In America, the majority raises very formidable barriers to the liberty of opinion.


Could you explain this more? Personally, I am having a hard time understanding how it could be true. It seems to be that in America (and, for instance, in Western Europe) there is a significant diversity of opinion. Much more than in, say, Syria.

What am I missing?



What you're missing is that coberst equates disagreement with oppression.

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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N C More
Skeptic Friend

53 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  06:30:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send N C More a Private Message
Why am I not surprized? Here we go again.

Coberst, I really, really think you should listen to Kil's advice. BTW, if the moderators and administrators were as "out to get you" as you think your IP# would have been banned long ago! These guys are trying to help you, they put in a lot of time and effort to show you what the problem is...Listen to them!

"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!"
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  07:04:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
"Whaaaa?" - Jon Stewart

Do you really think your being oppressed? Do you really think that we have somehow set up a wall against you? Coberst, you come here posting, we question and critize your post, and you don't respond to most of it. We are listening to you, we just don't agree. If you would be willing to back up your points, maybe we would.

Back yourself up. Then we will respect you.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  07:24:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Coberst, for the first 5 - 10 essays to you posted there were no critics. There was an honest attempt to enter discussions with you. You refused to enter into any meaningful discussions and that was when the criticism started. The more you refuse to enter into any dialog, and lash out at any disagreement, the more criticism you are getting. You have brought this on yourself.
If you would simply discuss your points and stop preaching the criticism would stop.

If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  09:06:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Sigh. OK now. I just caught this. Wish I had seen it earlier. Since there are a few replies, let me get some opinions. Lock or delete? I will not wait long. Just vote. Don't reply to this thread other than to vote...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  09:25:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
lock

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  09:34:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
lock

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  09:38:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
lock

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  09:51:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
If no one had replied, I would say delete, but I'll have to go with lock.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  10:24:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
lock

If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2004 :  10:25:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Lock it is...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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