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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  14:14:15  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I'm not sure if this post is a good idea, but I'm going to do it anyway. What follows these paragraphs is a list of all the threads that coberst has started, anywhere on the web, according to Google (forums which close themselves to Google are, of course, not included, but may exist). These posts were made to a total of 12 message boards, beginning on December 14, 2003.

Notable things this exercise has shown me are that coberst's name is Chuck, that he was 69 when he started posting, that he's now 70, and discovered critical thinking five years ago. These things are rather boring, actually.

What's interesting is that Chuck is a self-described "fanatic," and the label fits him very well. Fanatics are, as a general rule, unable to use reason to critically examine the subject of their fanaticism - in this case, "critical thinking" and "self-learning" - and also unable to use reason to examine their own actions with regards to their goals. Chuck admits to being something of a "nut," but fails to realize - because he cannot - that he is clearly a nut. And with such wonderful admissions as this:
quote:
Actually I consider myself to be a senior scholar. A senior scholar is a self-learner, critical thinker and avid user of the local community college library. In fact I was considered their best customer last year.
we can see that Chuck is a nut with no sense of humility whatsoever.

A fanatic with a superiority complex is a dangerous combination. It leads to assumptions (as came out on the BABB) like this:
quote:
I assume the majority of readers of this forum to be adults with as little understanding of the concept of Critical Thinking as I did five years ago.
Such assumptions are, in a word, terrifying. Not that I want to travel far down the slippery slope, but if one is able to make assumptions like that, how easy would it be to make the assumption that - for example - the majority of the U.S. holds one's same opinion on the questions of race, religion, sex, or a bazillion other subjects which are already rife with prejudice? It's one thing to try (and fail) to be a "Johnny Appleseed of Criticial Thinking," as which he might simply have promoted the ideals, but to assume that "the majority" (my emphasis) of others on a forum devoted to science had the same experiences as he did is downright stupid.

Even worse is a single line from this post:
quote:
Any criticism is a sign of the lack of knowledge of the individual.
Chuck is just putting his long "heckling" sermons into more-concise words. Even a "Hey, Chuck, you could get your message across better if you did thus-and-such" post is considered, by Chuck, to simply show how little the criticizer knows about critical thinking. Chuck has, after a measly five years,

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.

sweet
New Member

6 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  15:33:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sweet a Private Message
There very last of coberts posts (as posted in your post) were fighting words. This guy don't know jack about philosophy...oooooh those be fighten words!
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coberst
Skeptic Friend

182 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  16:04:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit coberst's Homepage Send coberst a Private Message
Dave

I should hire you as my publicity agent. Good work my friend! This is a remarkable bit of research, you are to be commended for your dilegence and tenacity. I plan to send a copy of this to my children, they always ask what I do with all my free time since retiring.
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  17:42:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Cripes, Dave, how long did that take you and what prompted you to google him? BTW, I don't post anywhere else as Renae. Honest.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  18:14:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Renae asked:
quote:
...and what prompted you to google him?
Frankly, I thought - weeks ago - that Chuck's posts sounded like they were cut-and-pasted from some random wanna-be philosopher's Web site. Turned out to not be the case, at least not that Google can tell (people can specify that Google not show their pages). And it took a while, given a few minutes here, and a few minutes there, and given that Chuck kept adding stuff while I was doing it.
quote:
BTW, I don't post anywhere else as Renae. Honest.
If you ever become as annoying and self-centered as Chuck, and we might just have to test that.

sweet, aside from giving you a belated "welcome to the SFN," I'd like to know if you'd like to switch your intended PhD from philosophy to abnormal psychology?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  19:17:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
My worldview is: Reality is multi-layered. An onion might be a useful metaphor...


Is that taken from Shrek? It was posted 2 years after the film was released.

Edit: Oh yea, I forgot to add, I think Dave wins the post of the year award.

You might want to talk to other forum owners about posting this on their forums as well.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 08/10/2004 19:18:52
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N C More
Skeptic Friend

53 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  20:04:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send N C More a Private Message
I posted a link to it over at Bad Astronomy...seeing as there are many quotations from BABB I felt it was appropriate. I think most posters there are aware of the situation though.

"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!"
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2004 :  20:22:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I knew I'd forget something. Chuck said that this site was a "very good site" for "Critical Thought" (in this thread), and suggested that the person who pointed it out "Pass it on at every opportunity." Chuck never did, and I wonder why not.

Also, it's important to note that the INDOLink post (of 06/23/04) is the only thread Chuck appears to have started outside of forums somehow devoted to philosophy, science, and/or skepticism.

And besides turning down "Post of the Year" for somebody who does something truly worthy of such an honor (the subject of this thread is a bit too narrowly focused), Ricky, other forum owners will either find this thread, or someone within their forums will point it out to them. I'd rather not "intrude" on already-busy moderators and admins by pointing out this stuff explicitly. I mean, Chuck only posted once at Betterhumans, would they really care? And he may already be forgotten at II.

N C More, thanks for the sister thread on BABB, and thanks also for your opinions on my actions.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  00:01:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Wow, what an incredible amount of time that must have taken. I love the internet and I love people like you who do all that and share it with us on the networks.

Actually, I quit answering coberst's posts after about my 3rd or 4th attempt. It was became clear it was useless at that point since he never responded to anything I said, he just went on in the same direction.

I did wonder when I started posting here recently because someone posted that coberst had brought a lot of BABBers to TSFN forums. I didn't know what to make of that friendly endorsement.

For all your work though, I see a lot of forums I might try out. Some of them look really interesting. (As if I need to spend more time on forums.)
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/11/2004 00:06:10
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Skyhawk
New Member

33 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  01:17:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Skyhawk a Private Message
Dave W., do you always pry into people's privcy whenever you don't like their posts (whether consistently or not). I find it discgraceful to spend copious amount of time "digging up dirt." Especially on an elderly. Better responses would have been not to answer to his replies/thoughts at all. Hasn't your mother taught you "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?
I don't think you can totally judge a person from his life on the internet. You can't totally analyze a man from that.
I myself don't agree with his stuff and I find it weird but I don't research the person nor do I post anything in response to his posts. I have more respect in people than that.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  02:47:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Skyhawk

Dave W., do you always pry into people's privcy whenever you don't like their posts (whether consistently or not). I find it discgraceful to spend copious amount of time "digging up dirt." Especially on an elderly. Better responses would have been not to answer to his replies/thoughts at all. Hasn't your mother taught you "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?
I don't think you can totally judge a person from his life on the internet. You can't totally analyze a man from that.
I myself don't agree with his stuff and I find it weird but I don't research the person nor do I post anything in response to his posts. I have more respect in people than that.

Skyhawk, you don't understand. Many of us have replied to numerous posts by coberst only to be annoyed at wasting our time. Dave wasn't looking for dirt, he was revealing what we sort of already knew, coberst posts the same stuff over and over with different titles and different versions but with the same underlying theme. I had no idea how pervasive coberst had been. It isn't nice to waste everyone's time. Dave was merely fact finding. Evidence based complaining about a person's posts rather than just name calling or something worse.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  03:02:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Off-topic, not meant to be rude, but I've often wondered how to uphold this idea. Would you say, Skyhawk, that this post is a good example of "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all?"

Also, once you post something on an internet board, it is hardly invading anyone's privacy to show what was posted.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with what was posted, just saying that posting on an internet site makes it very public.

quote:
"If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  03:44:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Off-topic, not meant to be rude, but I've often wondered how to uphold this idea. Would you say, Skyhawk, that this post is a good example of "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all?"

Also, once you post something on an internet board, it is hardly invading anyone's privacy to show what was posted.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with what was posted, just saying that posting on an internet site makes it very public.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?


[/quote]
As far as I'm concerned, anything I post is in the public domain, for good or ill.

As I recall, I responded to coberst once before giving it up for a bad job. As for tracking him all over the net, sorry Dave, but why bother? He has committed no criminal acts, that anyone knows of, and his writings here are explanitory enough.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Wulfstan
New Member

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  04:51:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Wulfstan a Private Message
Well, Dave, that is a beautiful post--very well executed! It has been evident that you've taken particular interest in Coberst's postings and as a case study for Internet forum posters, it has merit as well. I've noticed on certain psychology sites that Internet behavior has grown into a seriously discussed topic, no different than other patterns of addictive behavior; you are what you post and I fear that Coberst is so into his own head, so into this cutting and pasting, that he is really hurting himself. I don't think one can divest their Internet activities from their "real" life so easily, contrary to what Shyhawk has said. No, you can't TOTALLY judge a man (or woman)from their Internet activities, but it is very indicative of a person's personality. While reading your post, I thought, "Coberst is going to love this," and I was right--he's giggling with devilish glee over it. But this wasn't the intended effect.

Coberst is becoming "famous" for being Coberst. He has thoroughly embraced his Cobersticness and shows no signs of getting "real." He hasn't even heeded the calls for proper citations and continues to post others' work--just do a Google search on some of his sentences--they're plagiarized and people on BABB have pointed this out, as well. He refuses to do the simple act of citing! Now, someone who can register and post on many forums should be able to handle this. I'm surprised the BA on BABB didn't warn him.

Worse is, he's very didactic, which does nothing to help others with critical thinking. IMO, the very best way to learn how to think critically is to watch others who are good at it, be challenged by others who are good at it, and to surround yourself with others who want to and are able to think critically. We can all take a philosophy class or pick up a book--Coberst doesn't seem to accept that his posts do little to meeting his ends. So be it. It's not as if we all haven't tried in various ways to get him to get out of his head and just engage with others in critical thinking.

quote:
Skyhawk said:
Dave W., do you always pry into people's privcy whenever you don't like their posts (whether consistently or not). I find it discgraceful to spend copious amount of time "digging up dirt." Especially on an elderly.

Dave hasn't pried into someone's privacy--Coberst is posting on public forums under the same name, pasting the same stuff and in forums with similar themes. I thought from the get-go that Dave was genuinely and simultaneously perturbed/fascinated with Coberst. It's definitely new to me to see someone do this. Coberst offered his age and actually, because of his age, I tried to be gentle in my initial copious posts on the other forum. Prying into people's privacy would be looking up other information Coberst (Chuck) has not offered.

quote:
Better responses would have been not to answer to his replies/thoughts at all. Hasn't your mother taught you "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?

That's what you think is a better response. To Coberst, it's not. He obviously likes the responses for good or bad. He could have changed his method and heeded people's advice and elicited much different responses. Even though responses have waned, he's still posting in the same method. I don't bother replying to him anymore because time is too short and he won't get "real." Again, Dave hasn't "dug up dirt" but pieced together a compilation of Cobert's activities. Coberst has responded that he is impressed with Dave's work. What do you say to that?
quote:

I don't think you can totally judge a person from his life on the internet. You can't totally analyze a man from that.

I totally disagree with that. I think what someone posts is very much about who they are--this issue came up on my board some time ago and I eventually met two posters in their home states. Some people may say a lot of things they wouldn't have the guts to say to others in person, but the behavior, the amount of time spent on the Internet, the style of posts, etc, etc is very indicative of that person's constitution.

quote:
I myself don't agree with his stuff and I find it weird but I don't research the person nor do I post anything in response to his posts. I have more respect in people than that.

Actually, I first responded to Coberst out of respect for his being a 70 year old retired man who may have recently discovered Internet forums and is trying to convey what he has been studying in the community college library. I no longer reply because I can't get the adequate feedback that I desire. That goes for anyone--if I don't ever get feedback, I'll go elsewhere--I'm not here or there to hear myself talk. When Coberst wants to get real, I'm here, because he knows, in fact, that I agree with some of his thoughts.

Though, Coberst, that sexist comment WAS neanderthalish!
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N C More
Skeptic Friend

53 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  05:04:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send N C More a Private Message
"Digging up dirt"...Just a minute now, when you post something on a public BB it's open for discussion. If someone's postings don't reflect upon them in a positive fashion then they shouldn't have posted them to begin with! Personal responsibility has to be taken when one posts in the public domain.

"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!"
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2004 :  05:53:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Skyhawk

Dave W., do you always pry into people's privcy whenever you don't like their posts (whether consistently or not). I find it discgraceful to spend copious amount of time "digging up dirt." Especially on an elderly. Better responses would have been not to answer to his replies/thoughts at all. Hasn't your mother taught you "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all"? So are you planning to dig up my "dirt" too?
I don't think you can totally judge a person from his life on the internet. You can't totally analyze a man from that.
I myself don't agree with his stuff and I find it weird but I don't research the person nor do I post anything in response to his posts. I have more respect in people than that.



Interesting how you pull out the tired cliche about not saying something unless you have something good to say. That is religious nonsense, and I wonder why you don't follow your own advice?

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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