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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2004 : 01:57:19 [Permalink]
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Dave has touched, albeit briefly, upon an interesting point: if this thing is so hot, why is it that the 'players', Soros, Trump, et al, don't seem to be in it? With that kind of money to be made, you'd think that they'd be all over it. Or be setting something similiar up, themselves.
Perhaps they have and are keeping it a secret, eh?
If I were tempted to toss the few spare dollars I have into something like this, I'd first ask the advice of the investment officer at the bank. If it were for real, he'd tell me so. That's his job and he knows how to do it.
As it stands at the moment, the name 'Pure Investor' sounds synomous with 'Hoover.'
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 04:38:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
Sir... refer back to the statment in my last post.
"Humans define thier reality threw hard toil and suffering...and after experiencing this for so long...people feel that this is how it is and should be."
You commend the hard workers, calling them the backbone of capitalism. Yet, you only want to reap the fruits of their work without putting some effort into it yourself. How spineless...
quote:
This is the "brainwashing" that i was refering to...Dr. Mabuse couldnt have giving me a better example. What have we all been taught in school?? ....go out and LEARN how to be qualified to WORK for someone else..and make THEM rich....this is the ONLY way you can make it.
That's bollocks. With my level of competence I could easily have gone solo, working as an entrepeneur, self-employed. I choose to work for my current employer for several reasons. I can focus on doing something I like and am good at, and don't get bogged down in a lot of stupid administration. Teamwork. Having coworkers is nice. The technology I work with has the side effect of benefitting mankind, something that I find very cool.
quote:
While on the other hand people from other countries are taught how to come into the USA and start a business and become rich....and what happens...we end up working for them....is there something wrong with this picture??....
That is a question you should ask yourself, not me. They are industrious, and you are lazy gits?
quote:
Tell me this Dr. Mabuse ...does the owner of the company you work at make a honest living??....he is making money off of YOU.
He is actually "they" as in shareholders. Well, the CO is doing much more than I feel he's worth. But we're working on that. In this company, more than 80% of the workers are members of one labour union or another, this gives us a measure of democracy, and a way to influence the top executives' wages and bonuses.
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Is that "honest"? Tell me...does the land lord make a HONEST living? He makes money off of YOU!!!
No he does not. I own a condomonium share, and the purpose of the condomonium is to break even, finacially.
quote:
How about the bankers ...you put their money into their "safe" hands and in a years time they make hundreds of times more money off of YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY.....
That would depend on my loan/saving ratio, and the amounts involved.
quote:
In this "debate" so-to-speak-of I hope you all learn something.
Are you interested in learning something for yourself?
Here at Skeptic Friends Network, educaion is a free service...
quote:
And please understand that im not trying to bash anyone. Just hope that i've opened some eyes....thats all
What I've seen this far is that there are still people who believe in a free lunch.
(Edited spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/13/2004 04:50:12 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 05:56:03 [Permalink]
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Bottom line, Lapcus:
If there were an easy, effortless, guaranteed way to get rich, we'd ALL do it and we'd ALL be rich. There would be no need for cheesy seminars at the Holiday Inn(tm) or mysterious Malaysian Internet scams...we'd all just do The Magical Thing That Makes Us Rich and we wouldn't need sell the idea or recruit others.
Same thing with losing weight: if there were an easy, effortless way to lose weight, we'd all be a size four instead of the Big Butt Nation we currently are in America.
It's common sense, really, not skepticism. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 07:08:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
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Valiant Dancer- Warning bells should be deafening at this point. Claims of being part of the elite is common huckster language.
Lapcus- Elite??....the "Elite" run most of the world and direct the "Masses" as they please. But thats another topic saved for the "conpiriscy room"...
While the elite do run most of the world, a company claiming that for $450 US you can buy your way into it is complete huckster language.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- Good morning, shill. On further review, I note that the article I linked to isn't the one I thought it was. I apologize for the error.
Lapcus- YOU MEAN YOU DIDNT READ AND STUDY THIS BEFORE YOU POSTED IT??!?!?!?!.....why am I not surpirsed...this proves my whole point.
This qoute says it all.
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about".....nuff said
Strawman, point posited was that I linked to the wrong board. I apologized for the error. I have been on the Pure Investor website and looked for specific holdings. They have nothing perhaps you could post them here instead of offering to "let people know in private".
quote:
Valiant Dancer- However, any secretive company that doesn't reveal it's income streams isn't one that deserves trust.
Lapcus- Secretive??? The info is out there and they have nothing to hide. And besides...judging from the "error" you made earlier...i dont believe you would even look for the info....just lable it a SCAM and go about your day.
No, it doesn't. I do look for info, just sometimes I make mistakes. I'm just willing to admit said mistakes.
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Valiant Dancer- You still have not answered any questions on what holdings they have. I also note that other message boards which express skepticism at the scam are innundated with shills as well. Not a good pattern. Writing to PIPS scamees in an attempt to insulate them from dissent is very fishy.
Lapcus- I just sent someone a buttload of info and links to info that he can read.....IF and only "IF" you truly want to know more...then email me at the email giving in my first post. IF not...just yell SCAM and go about your business
You sent an undisclosed person a "buttload" of undisclosed info and links, yet you won't post this on an open forum. Odd. And this should convince me how?
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Valiant Dancer- Money makes the world go round and there is a limited amount of it. Another skeptic on the message board linked to above looked at the information available and discovered that there is a financial incentive for members to recruit more members. This, old pot, is a classic sign of a pyramid scheme. I remain skeptical.
-Lapcus yes you are right there is a bonus you get for sponsoring someone. It is $10 a month. You dont have to tell anyone about this..and infact I havent went out "recruiting". People ask me what am i doing these days....I tell them. If they like then cool...if they dont...so what. The $10 a month is cool. An added bouns. But really its not that important I myself make almost 40 times that a day..thats right...a day.....so what is $10 a month?? There have been a few people that joined under the admin site that I refered....did i lose sleep....no...im just glad that they are in.
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In this "debate" so-to-speak-of I hope you all learn something.
And please understand that im not trying to bash anyone. Just hope that i've opened some eyes....thats all
Please point out what hasn't been a debate. So far, you have been making nothing but appeals to an anonymous authority and style over substance logical fallacies.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
Opened our eyes to what? We've seen "make money quick" schemes before. We still remain skeptical. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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lapcus
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 11:22:30 [Permalink]
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I can respond with these breif points
1. I am not trying to convince you ( for those strawmen naysayers who need clearification of my "brush" ..."you" means all of those who have posted negative post on PIPS) of anything.
2. To the 3 people asked for info ...i will not devluged your IDs and expose you to "their" scruitiny.
3. Dude - you can contact me via the email i gave in the first post.
4. Yes...if I dont want to work my life away ..and acutaly enjoy life doing things I "want" to do....then yes...im lazy
5.Valiant Dancer - you posting that "propaganda" is no diffrent than Farnheit 9/11 ....after the movie is made and the damage is done....then Moore says "oops" yea somethings were "bent"....sorry
"Please point out what hasn't been a debate. So far, you have been making nothing but appeals to an anonymous authority and style over substance logical fallacies." ?!?!?!!?!?!?! ...nevermind...its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
Im not trying to convince you otherwise.
6. What i mean by "JOB" is doing something that you "do not" want to do in order to survive. If what you "all" (refer to my strawman explanation above) are doing is something that you "want" to do ..then its not really a job ( as layman would put it..NOT webster)
7. Filty how do you know that these rich people "havent" invested? If they did, do you think that they have an obligation to tell "you"? or the rest of the public? There has been people who have put 100,000 into PIPS. If they have that much to put into PIPs..the Id say that they are not poor. And no...i will not tell thier names so you can interrogate them for your amusement. Filty ...its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
8. Dr. Mabuse people have been reaping the fruits of other peoples labor since the dawn of man. Thats just the way it is. If reaping the fruits makes me spinless...then spinless i am. Also...are you from the USA? ...with me being 25 i know what was taught in "my" public school as it is still semi fresh in my mind...I what what is offered in colledge courses. I dont know about yours. And also cut it with the "im industrious..and im doing my part for the greater good of the human race" bid. If you are truly that noble then i commend you...me on the other hand Im not that "industrious".....its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
9. Renae you must not know "human nature" just because its "easy" doesnt mean that the masses will follow. There are millions just like you and im not trying to change that.....I want there to continue to be millions like you....I just dont want to be like you. I dont want the whole world to Join such a program. Then it would fail....and so would the economy of the world. ......its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
10. In your jumble of words ....i hear the word "you are a fool" and yes I took insult to it. And in my jumble of words I am saying "no im not"
11. If you wanted to know more about this program just email me.....
to the "rest" (strawman syndrome acting up again).. its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
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| Edited by - lapcus on 10/13/2004 11:29:44 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 11:49:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
I can respond with these breif points
5.Valiant Dancer - you posting that "propaganda" is no diffrent than Farnheit 9/11 ....after the movie is made and the damage is done....then Moore says "oops" yea somethings were "bent"....sorry
"Please point out what hasn't been a debate. So far, you have been making nothing but appeals to an anonymous authority and style over substance logical fallacies." ?!?!?!!?!?!?! ...nevermind...its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
Im not trying to convince you otherwise.
I see. So you are applying documentary criteria to discussion boards. Propaganda implies a deliberate bad act. No such malice was intended and the improper posting was due to error. What damage has been done? What possible damage can be implied by a message board expressing skepticism about a dubious investment scheme can there be? Are we actively denouncing the scheme on other forums? No. Are we commissioning ads about it? No.
The main concerns of secrecy of holdings, the assessment of lincensure laws as compared to US licensure laws, and the history of governmental oversight in Malaysia continue to be issues. A number of posters who insist that it cannot be a scam and the owners are above reproach is illogical.
I already believe from the way "defenders" react to critism of their scam that it is likely a Ponzi scheme due to the secretive nature of the plan and the recruitment efforts. What am I supposed to "accept"?
If you aren't trying to convince us that this isn't a scam, then why did you post? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 12:33:21 [Permalink]
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lapcus wrote:quote:
2. To the 3 people asked for info ...i will not devluged your IDs and expose you to "their" scruitiny.
It is, of course, divisive statements like the above which lead one to believe that you've got a religious-live fanatacism for PIPS. It is, after all, you who are fostering an "us-versus-them" atmosphere. And to top it off, nobody here in public has asked for you to divulge the identities of anyone you've emailed. All they've asked for is the information you felt free to email out, but are reluctant to post for all to see.
Heck, we had no need to know that you'd emailed three people. Why did you volunteer that information? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 12:42:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
8. Dr. Mabuse people have been reaping the fruits of other peoples labor since the dawn of man. Thats just the way it is. If reaping the fruits makes me spinless...then spinless i am. Also...are you from the USA?
You can buy a clue for $1000.
Actually, you can get the clue for free: It's stated right under my name and avatar.
quote:
...with me being 25 i know what was taught in "my" public school as it is still semi fresh in my mind...
I'm halfway to senility soon, I've manage to forget at least half of what I've learned there.
quote:
I what what is offered in colledge courses. I dont know about yours.
I'm sorry, but I can't decode this. My English skills aren't that advanced.
quote:
And also cut it with the "im industrious..and im doing my part for the greater good of the human race" bid. If you are truly that noble then i commend you...
"I'm doing my part...."
Is greed so integrated in your society that you can not accept that people can do such things without first looking after number one first?
quote:
me on the other hand Im not that "industrious".....its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
Is this sarcasm or irony? I'm at a loss, though not offended either way.
quote:
11. If you wanted to know more about this program just email me.....
to the "rest" (strawman syndrome acting up again)..
Do you know what a "strawman" is? As in logical fallacy?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 13:24:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
6. What i mean by "JOB" is doing something that you "do not" want to do in order to survive. If what you "all" (refer to my strawman explanation above) are doing is something that you "want" to do ..then its not really a job ( as layman would put it..NOT webster)
See that? You just took on the job of defining words on your own and put Webster out of work.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 13:36:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
7. Filty how do you know that these rich people "havent" invested? If they did, do you think that they have an obligation to tell "you"? or the rest of the public? There has been people who have put 100,000 into PIPS. If they have that much to put into PIPs..the Id say that they are not poor. And no...i will not tell thier names so you can interrogate them for your amusement. Filty ...its a SCAM, PONZI, MLM, PYRAMID or whatever you want to call it...accept that and move on with your life.
I don't know, but doubt it. I'd thought I'd made that clear in my previous post. Sometimes, I don't get across as well as I think I do. Sorry 'bout that.
So tell me, what does the investment manager at your bank think of it? Believe me, if it is on the level, he'd break a leg getting you into it. O'course, you'd have to pay a bit of a commision, but it would be as nothing compared to what you'd make.
I have a modest investment fund. T'ain't much, but is what I plan to leave behind to my kids when I croak. I have known the folks at my bank for many years -- we're on a first name basis -- and if such an investment oportunity came up, I'd be made aware of it. Kevin, who does these things, would have notified me that he advised changing around my account. Such notice has yet to come, and Kevin keeps track of all of it.
My friend, I fear that you trading a steak for a turd. Did you investigate this outfit at all before sending them your money? Or just listen/read their pretty words?
Edited to add that I really don't care who is in it or for how much. But I might remind; if you won't divulge supporting information for your claims, your statments become worthless.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/13/2004 13:43:46 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 18:33:09 [Permalink]
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Dang, I missed this before...
lapcus wrote:quote:
What i mean by "JOB" is doing something that you "do not" want to do in order to survive.
I call those tasks "chores." As in, "paying the monthly bills is a real chore." With your definition of "job" in mind, I suppose that you've already hired someone to wipe your butt for you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 19:07:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Dang, I missed this before...
lapcus wrote:quote:
What i mean by "JOB" is doing something that you "do not" want to do in order to survive.
I call those tasks "chores." As in, "paying the monthly bills is a real chore." With your definition of "job" in mind, I suppose that you've already hired someone to wipe your butt for you?
*tsk* Dave, such talk! Surely our friend lapcus is smart enough not to let someone else perform the necessary. I mean, who could be trusted? The designated wiper might feel a little pissy some day and put a dab of turpintine on the paper.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 23:45:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
2. To the 3 people asked for info ...i will not devluged your IDs and expose you to "their" scruitiny.
First, let me say that I have no problems with you giving out my ID. I confess. I emailed you asking for information.
You seem to share a common misunderstanding of what a skeptic is. I am not afraid of the “big evil skeptic”, in fact, I rejoice that these wonderful people are here on Earth. And I welcome their scrutiny. If I am wrong, my claim will break down under the hard scrutiny they provide. If I am right, it will hold up. You think skeptics are evil because they tell you the way you want the world to be is wrong. I think they are awesome because they tell me how the world really is, not how I want it to be.
One of the primary things a skeptic does is ask questions. A skeptic is one who is always after new information. But the questions skeptics ask are the hard ones, the questions are designed to test the validity of what you present. When the claim of homeopathy is made, skeptics ask, “How does water remember the chemicals are in it.” The thing is that skeptics have asked this so many times without response that they have just stopped asking. There is no point anymore. Getting new evidence is never looked down upon, in fact asking for evidence is encouraged greatly. There is no way asking you for information is in any way, shape, or form looked down upon or scrutinized on this forum.
As much as it is a skeptics job to ask question, it is also ones job to reach conclusions. If skeptics trusted hearsay, then every claim ever made could be shown true: Homeopathy, aliens, psychics, etc. We absolutely can not trust the word of another, it simply doesn't hold up. Through studying critical thinking and learning logic fallacies such as the Straw Man, one learns how to reach a valid conclusion and recognize invalid ones. That is what skeptics practice here. The people here have found your claim, that money is gained by everyone, invalid.
So why is your claim invalid?
The amount of gains that PIPS claims to make is false for one very simple reason. When you invest in a large number of different markets (a large base), you get a safer, but smaller return. Some markets do well, some do poorly. You are both making and losing money when you invest with a large base. There is simply no way you can only invest in markets which make money constantly with a large base. The amount of returns is greater than any other firm, and because it is all a secret, you cast much doubt over your position. As I said before, positions based on hearsay such as claims on Aliens are simply dismissed. Unless you can come up with evidence, consider yourself dismissed.
You may not be here to convince us, but we (at least I) am here to convince you. Why? There is simply too much damn ignorance in this world. Too many damn scams. You have one or the other, take your pick. You either show ignorance that you don't understand how the system works, or you are actively are trying to steal money from others in a scam.
I am here to change that.
I hope to still receive answers to my questions in the email I sent you.
Your Big Bully Skeptic,
Ricky Shadrach
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 10/14/2004 00:18:17 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 02:30:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky I confess. I emailed you asking for information.
Haha, so did I. He said he would email anyone on how PIPS makes money, so I emailed him and asked in no uncertain terms how PIPS makes its money. That's it. I told him to save all the sales pitches and just simply answer the question. Of course, he didn't, but I expected no less. The email itself was very professional with lots of wacky colors and RANDOM capitalization of KEY words. For example: YOU, determine HOW MUCH you want to earn, and HOW FAST.
Some interesting things did come to light though. You begin by sending them money, obviously, which they claim is deposited into a Trust Account managed by independent Trustees, which makes it fully secure. See? This plan is so trustworthy and secure because your money will always be in the possession of trustees. And it's independent, so no need to worry about any shady bookkeeping going on behind the scenes. Of course, we're not told who these trustworthy independent trustees of the trust account are, but I suppose we are to assume that they are upright individuals, otherwise why would the PIPS' managers put our money into their hands?
But it gets better! We have just launched our own bank; under banking rules. A NEW Pay System which means we no longer have to rely on external means to conduct our account transactions. All payments in and out, are about to be handled in house! Awesome! Awesome indeed! Why go through the hassle of dealing with federal banks which only want to gobble up your profits with their outrageous fees? This way is much better for everyone involved. It would seem the PIPS managers do hold onto your money after all, though. I guess the trusted trustees must work at the bank.
Oh, and another thing. Don't you hate it when your stocks take a dip and those stupid jerks on Wall Street (who you just know must be loaded) never offer to pay you out of their own pocket? Well PIPS will give you money even if their investments didn't earn it! Because of the ration of Company Investments versus Member Investments, (60% - 40%); the company really doesn't even have to make 2% everyday in order to pay us 2%. Awesome! Totally awesome! You get paid even if the company didn't earn enough to pay you! It's a win/win situation.
But how do they make all this money you ask? (I did.) Easy! Our investment strategy is to maximise the investment return, while minimizing risk. Shhh! Don't share that secret with everybody. Ok, but why does it work so well? There are 3 Main reasons why PIPS works: 1. Sound Investment and Risk Management 2. Diversification of Investment 3. Investment Fund Ratio. Now that's a three-pronged strategy that's impossible to fail!
But what about stability? How can I find out what where I'll be a few months from now? Worry not, they have a simulator available which will project your earnings over 2 years and calculate the results! 2 years? Try to find a brokerage firm who will guarantee that type of long range return!
Now, I know what you're all thinking. Is the investment listed in the Wall Street Journal, London Financial Times, or similar well-known financial publications? Enron was - Who Lost money in that one? Oh, snap! Those suckers who trusted traditional financial publications, that's who. I sure don't want to get burned like those people.
I don't know about you, but this sounds too good to be true. Is it too good to be true? THEN YOU ARE IN PIPS AND IT WORKS! Well, that settles it for me. I hope all of you "skeptics" learned a little something about rushing to premature conclusions. This is obviously a proven system. IT WORKS! Now all you have to do is take the plunge, invest, and sit on your ass drinking margaritas while the money pours in.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/14/2004 02:47:49 |
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