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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  18:10:44  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
After Able had been slain, the sons of Adam and Eve went fourth populating the Earth. Since they were the first ones on the planet according to Fundie(tm) doctrine, where did their wifes come from?
Logically, they had to be sisters of Cain.

So my question are these...:
1) If they weren't siblings, where did they come from?
2) If they were siblings, since when (where in the Bible) did God decree that married couples shouldn't be closer than cousins?

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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  19:45:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
This argument has been made many times. So far the responses I have seen are all made up such as:

"It wasn't a sin back then but now it is"

and

"God created more people"

Both, as far as I can tell, are unsupported in the Bible.

My bigot friend (if you remember that post) says:

SHER LOC621: i dunno
SHER LOC621: doesn't really affect me

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  19:55:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

This argument has been made many times. So far the responses I have seen are all made up such as: "It wasn't a sin back then but now it is"


I've heard something like this too. The logic (ha!) goes that since God created Adam and Eve, they were essentially genetically perfect. They had lots of childrens (living to some absurd age), which then bred amongst themselves. There were no birth defects or anything wrong in these relationships because of Adam and Eve's genetic perfection. Since then, man has been steadily becoming more and more genetically corrupted by the influence of sin on the world, so such inbreeding would no longer be healthy today, and thus God's ban on it.

Sounds silly, I know. Just passing along what I heard.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/20/2004 19:58:39
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  20:24:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
The logic (ha!) goes that since God created Adam and Eve, they were essentially genetically perfect. They had lots of childrens (living to some absurd age), which then bred amongst themselves. There were no birth defects or anything wrong in these relationships because of Adam and Eve's genetic perfection.


Sin created imperfection

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  22:05:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
The earth being populated by incest makes as much sense as anything else in their silly little fantasy....

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  22:45:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Both, as far as I can tell, are unsupported in the Bible.

That's the point I was hoping to make.

I don't recall the Bible mentioning A&E getting daughters, so I was hoping that you could shed some light on the subject.

As for siblings making out... that is really a discussion appropriate for the Social Issues Folder. Though I personally think that as long as they are two consenting adults it should be OK.
Questionable from an socio-economic standpoint though.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2004 :  23:17:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Both, as far as I can tell, are unsupported in the Bible.

That's the point I was hoping to make.

I don't recall the Bible mentioning A&E getting daughters, so I was hoping that you could shed some light on the subject.


Ah, well fundies proclaim that just because something isn't in the bible, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Since A&E had extremely long lifespans, the idea that a good christian couple with no access to birth control would stop having babies after two boys pushes the limits of credulity. (Even for me.) So the bible makes no mention of sisters, but fundies claim that we can assume their creation.

Fundies will often use this "the bible is free to omit certain details" argument whenever it suits them. They often go so far as to paper over direct contradiction with it. For instance, I'm no biblical scholar, but there are apparently conflicting accounts of how Judas takes his own life after selling the Lord for a few pieces of silver. One account says Judas hanged himself, the other account say he flung himself over a cliff. Direct contradiction, right?

Wrong, say the fundies. See, they maintain that Judas hung himself from a tree which hung over a cliff. After a hanging dead awhile, the rope weathered and broke and Judas went over the cliff. They claim that these two differing accounts of Judas' demise are not in contradiction since they don't directly mutally exclude one another. Each story simply only tells one part of the tale as it were, absent-mindedly omitting the other half.

Apparently for the accounts to contradict one other, one would have to very clearly state that Judas very much definitely did NOT hang himself, while the other say that he did. How can you argue against such a mindset?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/20/2004 23:40:21
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  03:01:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Well just read what the Bible says about incest. It couldn't be more clear.

And his wife came from....
quote:
4:17 "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from? The Bible doesn't mention any of Cain's sisters. Well, maybe he married his mom, or maybe God pulled another creation over in the next county. In any case, Cain and the mysterious Mrs. Cain have a son (another blue cigar!). His name is Enoch and he builds a city (population 3).

(more from the skeptics annotated Bible)
Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/21/2004 03:15:23
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  04:34:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
See, they maintain that Judas hung himself from a tree which hung over a cliff. After a hanging dead awhile, the rope weathered and broke and Judas went over the cliff. They claim that these two differing accounts of Judas' demise are not in contradiction since they don't directly mutally exclude one another. Each story simply only tells one part of the tale as it were, absent-mindedly omitting the other half.



This is my favorite.
I guess as a puny sinful mortal I'm not able to comprehend god inspired journalism written for puny sinful mortals.

If revealed word is perfect, why does it need apologetics?

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
Edited by - Starman on 09/21/2004 04:35:33
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  08:00:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

After Able had been slain, the sons of Adam and Eve went fourth populating the Earth. Since they were the first ones on the planet according to Fundie(tm) doctrine, where did their wifes come from?
Logically, they had to be sisters of Cain.

So my question are these...:
1) If they weren't siblings, where did they come from?
2) If they were siblings, since when (where in the Bible) did God decree that married couples shouldn't be closer than cousins?



While not explicit, the creation of others is implied by the statement that Cain married a woman from the land of Nod. Genesis appears to be singularly focused on the Adam bloodline. It is not absolute, but likely.

God "decrees" that married folks shouldn't be closer than cousins in Leviticus.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  08:35:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
So the bible makes no mention of sisters, but fundies claim that we can assume their creation.

My Pentacostal friend says "Adam and Eve were the first humans created" and continue that since Cain fled and aparently met the woman at the new place, it's more logical to assume that there were other people there that God created.
On the other hand, since there is no mention of Cain's sisters at all, they either didn't exist, or he could have brought her/them when he fled.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  08:52:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Who said his wife was human in the first place? ;)

Seriously. She just sprouted out of nowhere when it was convenient, apparently. Either that or he married a younger sister, that most likely was just a child (though that depends on his age and how fast Eve could spit out living progeny). Ha, incest AND child abuse.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  11:20:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Maybe Cain and Abel had sex with chimps or orangutangs. That would explain the neaderthals and the other early homo species. They then quickly evolved into modern humans. The orang angle would explain red hair. I like this creationism stuff you can just make it up as you go along.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  11:34:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Thus, it's creationistically explained that the so-called irish redhair is in fact a descent from orangutangs. I wonder where the asians came from...

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2004 :  18:01:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Mab wrote:
quote:
On the other hand, since there is no mention of Cain's sisters at all, they either didn't exist, or he could have brought her/them when he fled.
Actually, the sexism that runs rampant throughout the Bible is most evident in the fact that very few of the births of daughters are mentioned (see, for example, the genealogies in Genesis). The sons of Noah must have had some daughters, but I believe that only their sons (Noah's grandsons) are mentioned at all. Creation was over by that point in the book, so there would have been no whipping up new women for 'em. And if Ham was as ostracized as I've heard, his kids must have been incestual (either with Ham's wife or amongst themselves).

And, of course, Lot's two daughters got daddy drunk and took advantage of him, after he'd offered them up to the crowds of Sodom. The Bible is a sick, sick book.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend

USA
94 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2004 :  12:49:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Stargirl a Private Message
Hold on everyone you don't have to go to Cain and where his wife came from to see that god was into some really off beat sexual practices.
Adam and Eve will do nicely after all according to scripture Eve was created when god pulled a rib out of Adam.
Does this make Eve the first cloned human?
But wait it's not that simple because a cloned individual would be exactly like the original so god also had to change the sex.
Does this make Eve the first transsexual as well?
If so does that make Adam gay for having sex with Eve?
Did god by his/her/its silence deceive Adam?
Did Eve even know she was created from Adam?
Would it be considered incest if you have sex with your clone
And could it be that this was the forbidden fruit that really got them throw out of the Garden of Eden?
And if Adam enjoyed Eve's company and getting to know her I'm speaking in the biblical sense here, does this mean Adam perhaps fulfilled the ultimate narcissist fantasy?
One thing for sure if a story with this plot line were made into a sci-fi or Fantasy movie it would undoubtedly be condemned by the fudies.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire
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