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 A novel creationist argument
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  02:27:59  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
Well, novel to me anyway.
I recently came in the possession of a book on creationism from a muslim perspective.
It started with a special forword, containing amongst others the following claim:
quote:

"...if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity or Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims, Christians or Jews. They are real Social Darwinists.[...]For this reason, the root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but in atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism.""

Full text may be found at http://www.harunyahya.com/evolution_specialpreface.php

I'll leave the obvious rebuttal as an exercise to the reader. Nevertheless, it never hurts to keep track of these arguments. The rest of the book, incidentally, is hardly worth reading as it differs little from similar books from a christian perspective. The author even goes as far as quoting Dempski, Johnson and Behe. Oddly, he neglects to mention how all these authors consider their work to prove the existence of the christian god ;)

Plyss

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  02:53:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss

Well, novel to me anyway.
I recently came in the possession of a book on creationism from a muslim perspective.
It started with a special forword, containing amongst others the following claim:
quote:

"...if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity or Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims, Christians or Jews. They are real Social Darwinists.[...]For this reason, the root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but in atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism.""


The always useful Index to Creationist Claims by Mark Isaak
Claim CA002.1

There is not much missing from that list.
(May be this.)


"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  03:21:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Star, ya beat me to it! Great minds think alike, eh?

Mark Isaak's list should be in every skeptics cyber-library.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  07:55:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
There should be a law against saying extremely stupid things that have been refuted more than a million times.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  08:14:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

There should be a law against saying extremely stupid things that have been refuted more than a million times.



But if there was one, 90% of world's population would be in jail by now.

Now, I'll be right back. I need to explode an airplane in the name of Darwin.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  09:29:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:

"...if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity or Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims, Christians or Jews. They are real Social Darwinists.[...]For this reason, the root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but in atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism.""


How would you characterize this false assumption?
My first thought was that it is an Ad Hominem, the perhaps a "complex qustion".

Anyway, the faulty assumption is that there is a connection between "Social Darwinism" and "Darwinism/materialism".

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  11:22:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:

"...if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity or Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims, Christians or Jews. They are real Social Darwinists.[...]For this reason, the root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but in atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism.""


How would you characterize this false assumption?
My first thought was that it is an Ad Hominem, the perhaps a "complex qustion".

Anyway, the faulty assumption is that there is a connection between "Social Darwinism" and "Darwinism/materialism".



Since the idea being attacked is a combination religious extremism and evolution, I would say equivocation. Darwinism (moniker fundies give to evolution) and social darwinism are two completely different subjects.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  11:42:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:

"...if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity or Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims, Christians or Jews. They are real Social Darwinists.[...]For this reason, the root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but in atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism.""


How would you characterize this false assumption?
My first thought was that it is an Ad Hominem, the perhaps a "complex qustion".

Anyway, the faulty assumption is that there is a connection between "Social Darwinism" and "Darwinism/materialism".



In the end the statement boils down to "Some people who claim to be muslim commit terrorist acts. However, real muslims can't commit terrorist acts so these people aren't real muslims. They actually are darwinists/atheists/materialists".

In this formulation is seems to be a combination of a no-true-scotsman argument (dunnow what the official name is, unfortunately) and a complete non-sequitur. There's just no example of a person blowing up airliners in the name of "Darwinism".

As for the Social Darwinism claim, there is no reason why anyone would think terrorism is an efficient way of running a eugenetic program. It's just to random to be of any use for selectively removing unwanted genes.

It's really this evolution=terrorism claim though that was new to me in this specific book. I just can't comprehend how anyone could read that and not recognise it for the nonsense it is.
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  12:50:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
In this formulation is seems to be a combination of a no-true-scotsman argument (dunnow what the official name is, unfortunately) and a complete non-sequitur. There's just no example of a person blowing up airliners in the name of "Darwinism".



Then I will name it: Non-true-scotsman-sequitur

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2004 :  15:10:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
In the end the statement boils down to "Some people who claim to be muslim commit terrorist acts. However, real muslims can't commit terrorist acts so these people aren't real muslims. They actually are darwinists/atheists/materialists".


This is a very common tactic among the religious, even the moderates. If somebody does something that violates the generally accepted values of their belief system, they just claim that person wasn't a "true <insert religion here>". "no TRUE <insert religion here> would blow up a plane, bomb an abortion clinic, commit genocide, ect..."

It's faulty reasoning for to many reasons to list easily. Mainly it's a dodge to get their brand of religion off the hook.

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2004 :  12:03:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

There should be a law against saying extremely stupid things that have been refuted more than a million times.



But if there was one, 90% of world's population would be in jail by now.

Now, I'll be right back. I need to explode an airplane in the name of Darwin.



Too bad Darwin is dead. I'm sure if he where alive you'd be married to him and making his babies. Would they be human though, or evolved is the million dollar question.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2004 :  12:29:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

There should be a law against saying extremely stupid things that have been refuted more than a million times.



But if there was one, 90% of world's population would be in jail by now.

Now, I'll be right back. I need to explode an airplane in the name of Darwin.



Too bad Darwin is dead. I'm sure if he where alive you'd be married to him and making his babies. Would they be human though, or evolved is the million dollar question.



Ah, more sexist drivel from the mind(?) of verlch. Now jumping to the rash generalization that all women who accept evolution would want to marry Darwin and produce progeny with him.

I wonder how offended he'd be if someone suggested that since Saint Paul is dead he'd never have the chance to have homosexual sex with him.

Pity he doesn't see how his absurd and lame attempts at ad hominem does nothing to support his drivel.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2004 :  12:43:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message


quote:
Too bad Darwin is dead. I'm sure if he where alive you'd be married to him and making his babies. Would they be human though, or evolved is the million dollar question.


Not possible as we'd both be male. And neither of us swing that way, anyway.

But, if either he or I were female and alive, the babies would certainly be human and as evolved as all others of the era.

Next......


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2004 :  13:07:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Actually, he quoted my (sarcastic) post, and I'm indeed female and able to produce viable offspring. However, Darwin wasn't my type. Maybe I would, though. Was he hot in bed? Alas, I believe he'd be married, too. Shucks.

Edited for psychobabble.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 09/24/2004 13:11:08
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2004 :  13:16:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Actually, he quoted my (sarcastic) post, and I'm indeed female and able to produce viable offspring. However, Darwin wasn't my type. Maybe I would, though. Was he hot in bed? Alas, I believe he'd be married, too. Shucks.

Edited for psychobabble.



No Sabrina, would they even be human though? Or the next step in radical evolutionism?

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2004 :  14:01:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Who cares? Certainly not you.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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