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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  13:37:16  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
At the Skeptictimes forum, tk has deleted every post under the Creation vs. Evolution forum, and replaced it with one post calling for a formal debate:

quote:
Formal Debate

Well I did some reading like I said I would and I am getting tired of some trolling and unintelligent remarks. I am no longer allowing people to start topics in this forum or post in other topics, they will all be locked.

This is going to be an official debate thread. There will be no more pretending like you didn't get the answer you were looking for (not naming names) or using an appeal to ignorance or authority to claim that wasn't a good answer. You are going to have to debate in the following manner.

This will be a formal debate of the Evolutionists vs. Creationists. Now it will work as following:

1. Evolutionist Introduction: the evolutionists will present only three of their best arguments for evolution.

2. Creationist Introduction: the Creationist will present only three of their best arguments for Creation.

3. Evolutionist Rebuttal

4. Creationist Rebuttal

After that, it's done. I am a full time employee and college student and I don't have time to make sure you guys are obeying the rules, but from what I have seen you aren't. That being said, only ONE of the evolutionists and ONE of the Creationists will be posting - there will be only FOUR posts after this - an evolutionist post, a creationist post, and evolutionist post, a creationist post. Then it is over.

Thus you should discuss amongst your side what is going to be your argument and how you are going to go about defending it. I will work on the time frame later.

There will be no more "pretending you haven't received an answer" or getting upset when you break your own rules, or going off topic. You will be forced on this one.

I'd start thinking about how you are going to do things. I'll later re-edit this and add the time frame to it.

take care,
tk


Now I have pm'ed tk asking if in this topic we are allowed to question Creationist sources. If we are, I am going to particapate in the debate. Otherwise, I'm out. Now as the rules say, only one person can post but it can come from a variety of people. So I suggest we all come up with what we are going to post collectively.

So what do you think are the best 3 pieces of evidence for evolution? I suggest DNA.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  13:45:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
He said that we are allowed to question the science behind Creationist claims, but not the scientists themselves. Basically, if they bring up Hovind, we can not show some of the other things that Hovind has said which are completely crazy.

At least this is how I understand it. So I'm in.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  14:02:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Splendid.

The three best arguments:

a) DNA similarities;
b) Unquestionable fossil similarities;

And I'm still thinking the third...

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  15:10:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
We should ask him to allow us a thread in which we can discuss amongst ourselves who should represent us. It's not like every evolutionist will come from Skeptic Friends. It's not nice to exclude any potentially good representatives from our side.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  15:12:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hmph. Doesn't read like much of a debate to me. Can't attack the sources if they are of the calibre of Hovind's ergot-inspired gibberish? C'mon!

But I will help if I can.

How 'bout going for the throat right off the bat with the Homo fossil record. It is well documented and TO is a great reference for it.

Equus is also well documented at TO and eslewhere.

For a rebuttal, if they bring up Genesis, and they surely will, you can totally shread the Noachan Flood and Noah's little party cruise with Marty Leipiz's essay -- it's rattling around here somewhere and also I have it in my stash.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  15:29:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
How many others are posting there in favor if evolution?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  15:45:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
We should ask him to allow us a thread in which we can discuss amongst ourselves who should represent us. It's not like every evolutionist will come from Skeptic Friends. It's not nice to exclude any potentially good representatives from our side.


I have asked, and he has set up a topic for us. The only evolutionist that posts on skeptictimes besides me is Lobster, and i am waiting to hear if he will take part.

Filthy, I agree, both are greatly documented in the fossil record. These are both under the same argument, right? They would both be under fossil evidence. So those are two example, are there others that are very well documented in the fossil record? Whales come to mind. And the domestication of cows?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  16:02:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
I dunno, but maybe one point should be about science itself. The main argument I hear over and over from these creationists is that Evolution is a religion and requires faith. I'd bet my right arm that that'll be one of the creationist's 3 main points.

I think all the fossil record, DNA stuff etc. will fall on deaf ears until we can point out that faith isn't required in science, that it's truly objective, and that it has no agenda.

In short, I think the first talking point needs to be a distinction between science and religion, and maybe throwing in a clear definition of "theory" for good measure.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/02/2004 16:05:25
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  16:34:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
I dunno, but maybe one point should be about science itself. The main argument I hear over and over from these creationists is that Evolution is a religion and requires faith. I'd bet my right arm that that'll be one of the creationist's 3 main points.



I have made a topic on this, and basically their whole arguement that it wasn't a science rested only on their is no evidence for it.

They also agree that Creationism is not a science, but also a belief and don't want it in schools.

But I agree, the distinction between science and religion should be made.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  16:36:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Mmm, true.
First, firmly sever it from religion. Then attack.

[fluff]
-stares at Dr. Mab's avatar-
[/fluff]

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  16:39:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
They seem to have a major grievance agains something they call uniformitarianism. I'm not sure, but I guess they will attack the premise that the laws of nature and physics are constant and that they have always been constant.

The light coming from stars that are farther away than 6000 lightyears travelled faster in the beginning of the creation than it does now. Either that, or God created light-in-transit.

The same goes for any methods of dating strata: they will probably insist that the rate of nuclear decay was higher in "the early days" because the laws of physics had different parameters way back then.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  17:16:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
The same goes for any methods of dating strata: they will probably insist that the rate of nuclear decay was higher in "the early days" because the laws of physics had different parameters way back then.


No, I think that in going after the age of the Earth, they will show how some rock is dated 30 million years while the rock right next to it is 60 million years old or something like that to show that it is an invalid way of dating.

quote:
They seem to have a major grievance agains something they call uniformitarianism. I'm not sure, but I guess they will attack the premise that the laws of nature and physics are constant and that they have always been constant.


Quite a possibility. Dating of the Atlantic sea floor not only shows uniformitarianism but also how effective radioactive dating is. So I think that is pretty well covered.

So where do we stand so far? So far the proposed arguments are:

DNA
Fossils
Evolution is a science, not a religion

Is everyone ok with these? Are there any others we should consider?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 10/02/2004 17:18:08
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  17:46:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Since it is a creationist site, and you will lose, I would go with the most traditional approach as possible. I would discuss what the theory is, what a theory is, and what the theory is not. Talk about speciation and all the support for that. That would include DNA and the Fossil record as well as any other supporting evidence...

Also, you do not want your meetings to take place on that site. Not unless you can have a thread that is locked to everyone ells.

Remember, you might be right but you will be pronounced the looser...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  18:03:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Can't think of anything right offhand.

Be prepared for the tired, old "no transitional fossils" routine. I can help with good info there. Also, it might be fun to run the Archeoraptor flim-flam by them -- a fraud it was, but as it was made from two genuine species of the same era, both new to science, it remains a valuable fossil.

Might also include Microraptor gui, he of the four feathered limbs.

Or maybe not. There's just so much available, it's hard to pick and choose, and I get the impression that this shindig will be kept impossibly brief.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  19:23:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Just thought of something. Who is going to judge?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2004 :  19:37:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

Just thought of something. Who is going to judge?

Hell Kil, what difference does it make? The earth will not tremble no matter how it comes out.

I rather doubt that anyone's mind will be changed one way or another by this little discussion. I look at it as a bit of fun at the Creationists expense, albeit they will happily claim victory whatever -- as will we.

The debate I'd like to do would be no holds barred, no time limit, and let the blood flow where it may. This will certainly not happen on a Creationist forum.

Hey Ricky, invite them over here!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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