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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2004 : 19:03:27 [Permalink]
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Could it be......
Is it possible.........
Nah. If verlch has a page, surely it's not that one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 21:03:56 [Permalink]
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tk may have said that, but he has yet to codify it in any way. Not that the "published rules" are written in stone, but it'd mean more if he spent the effort to actually put the exception into the listed rules, especially since the listed rules are so draconian.
And that's part of the point. I think one would be hard-pressed to find a skeptical forum that has rules which say "questioning Carl Sagan is forbidden," or an evolution-accepting forum with a "no criticism of Darwin allowed" rules.
We know that both Sagan and Darwin were wrong in certain ways. Darwin's version of evolution through natural and sexual selection has been greatly modified in the last century. So much so that the comments of verlch and others who denigrate "Darwinists" make me laugh out loud at times. There are very few Darwinists left in the world.
Anyway, the main difference is that neither Sagan nor Darwin spent any time making people think their credentials were other than they were. This is why attacks on Hovind's "doctorate" are not ad hominems, and thus not fallacious. Hovind claims to be able to speak with authority about evolution, but the "Dr." he uses with his name - conspicuously - is not the source of that authority. If creationists such as tk would simply get over that, and stop treating Hovind as a PhD biologist, but instead treat him as just another regular Joe with a loud anti-evolution opinion, there'd be no need to impeach his credentials repeatedly.
But, tk seems to want to protect him. While many Christians should find Hovind's tactics and statements repugnant and anathema to Jesus' teachings, tk instead seeks to insulate Hovind and others like him from criticism, just as he seeks to insulate himself from the nasty world of the "evolutionists."
Does tk even realize that it's not a universal criticism? That people who actually have the credentials they claim, in the right fields, but still disagree with evolutionary theories are not vilified for being wholly unqualified to speak on the subject with authority? My guess is, since the rule over there is a blanket rule, simply said and simply read, that he makes no distiction between those who are deceitful for God, and those who are honest for God. But that's part of the difference: those who lie in support of a scientific principle will be hung out to dry by scientists, while those who lie for God will be protected by the Godly.
Yeah, I know I'm going long.
The point is that if someone implies, "Mr. X says blah-blah-blah, and so it's true," anyone and everyone should be allowed to point out the reasons why Mr. X has made so many mistakes that his word is not good enough. If "blah-blah-blah" really is true, then other people should be saying it, too. "Sole sourcing" facts from questionable people is simply a bad idea, and shouldn't have been codified into the rules of a discussion forum if that forum has any intention of being "pro-truth." And tk's site is all about that, as tk claims on this page.
Instead, on that same page, tk commits two of the acts which would get a person warned - and possibly banned - from his own forums, according to his own rules. He's disrepectful (with extensive flaming), and he goes off topic (the subject was not "reading comprehension"). He completely dodges the question of whether or not he's got a million bucks, but that's not against the rules, just against the moral code set forth in the Bible (his #1 favorite book).
tk, in my opinion Ricky, is so inconsistent and so self-absorbed that he cannot be trusted to keep his word on any rule he's laid down. I mean look at this thread. tk doesn't warn Athena that her post is disrespectful, doesn't warn her about the sexual content of her signature, and over here has completely failed to back up his promise that,there will be only FOUR posts after this - an evolutionist post, a creationist post, and evolutionist post, a creationist post. Then it is over. He can't be trusted to "play fair," Ricky. Not even on simple matters, if you don't agree with him exclusively and explicitly. He's a control freak with a religious agenda, a pretty scary combination which will hopefully burn itself out of the species someday before long. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 03:07:37 [Permalink]
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I'll say it now. Tk is a moron, it's that simple. But even worse, he's an arrogant moron.
I will follow the debate if you want to hold it Ricky, help out were I can, and be respectfull against Tk (even on this site) starting now untill the end of the debate. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 03:52:41 [Permalink]
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Actually, the guy comes off as a sort of tin-pot dictator-wannabe trying to surround himself with yessirs.
It is true, I think, that any debate with these intellectual dwarves will probably result in a squawking contest, at least until he shuts it down. But whaddahell, it might liven up a dull evening.
For myself, I'm still curious about the million dollars and does it exist? Further, if so, has the money been set aside in escrow, as has Randi's?
Rhetorical questions at best; the challenge as worded is impossible. He must be a big Hovind fan, for as well as adopting a variation of Dr? Dino's 'challenge,' he demonstrates an equally abysmal ignorance of the ToE.
Skeptic, my ass!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 04:53:18 [Permalink]
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| Indeed, his challenge is parroting Hovind to the letter, even in his challenge to 'textbook evolution', which is just an excuse for him to conflate all known biological theories in a grotesque parody. I am also positive that he is fully aware of this, as is Hovind. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 05:27:09 [Permalink]
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I also wonder about the identiy and the qualfications of the 'judges.' Trying to get that perfectly reasonable info out of Hovind only brings forth semi-coherent and often ill-tempered nonsense about protecting identies -- so I ask, if these folks are honest and highly qualified in their fields of endevor, why are they so shy? Protection from what?
I doubt that tk will be any more forthcoming and possibly even less. A pity he won't come here for a real discussion.
Edited to add that I would be astounded if these 'judge' individuals actually exist; both his own and Hovind's.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/04/2004 05:32:13 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 07:54:51 [Permalink]
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| I suggest for someone with the inclination to create a REALLY BIG LIST OF EVOLUTION SOURCES. So when they ask for evidence you can come back with a huge list of source material...Just the 29+ site has a ton of info if we can get 200 or so sites, book links, articles and studies to shove in their faces it might be handy. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 08:55:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I have decided that I am not going to do it.
I think you made the right choice. I don't think they are worth that much effort. Their trackrecord as skeptics and unbiased moderators speak for itself. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 09:05:48 [Permalink]
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| Looking at what I remember from the discussions I read earlier on those forums, you probably saved yourself from a lot of frustration. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 09:06:45 [Permalink]
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| Well It wouldnt be for just them of course, theres plenty of nuts to thwart gentlemen. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 09:32:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I have decided that I am not going to do it. If anyone wants to, feel free, and I will glady help.
Yeh, it's probably for the best. I can't do because the font over there is impossibly small and painful to my old eyes.
But do extend another invite from here. Do it extra nicely; offer them ice cream and cookies, and sody-pop if necessary.
"'Come into my parlor,' said the spider to the fly......."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:26:55 [Permalink]
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To all:
I, Peptide, being of unsound mind have accepted the debate challenge at Skeptice Times. Even after reading this thread I feel a little less confident about a fair debate. Nevertheless, I am going for it.
I have two topics already nailed down
1. Endogenous Retroviral Insertions comparisons between humans and chimps/gorillas/orangutans. I have all of the necessary references including a chart showing the dispersal of insertions by active retroviral insertions. They won't be able to argue "same viral infection in two different species".
2. The consistancy of stratigraphy and cladography. Reference: http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/publs/Benton/1999SystBiol.pdf
For the third argument I would like to use an observed instance of evolution through random mutation. I am leaning towards the nylon bug, but suggestions would be appreciated. On the nylon bug, I also know of another paper that cured the flavobacterium of the plasmid carrying the nylC gene and they were still able to evolve nylonase activity. This might be a nice one two punch. Been a while since I looked for that reference but it shouldn't take long.
Right now, the debate calls for opening statements and one round of rebuttals. I am going to ask for an additional post to rebut the rebut. I think this is only fair just as long as the final rebutalls only deal with the information in the first rebut. (Hope that wasn't too confusing).
I plan on placing the post here first so that you guys can fix any errors or suggest changes. The hard part is "dumbing it down" so that it makes sense to the layman. Wish me luck!!
Peptide |
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