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Peptide
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2004 :  13:50:41  Show Profile Send Peptide a Private Message
The following post will appear at skeptictimes:



Thanks for all your help. Enjoy.
-------------------------------
Introduction:

I will be presenting thee distinct pieces of evidence that support the theory of evolution in three different areas:

1. Common descent between divergent species.

2. Observed macroevolution as seen in the fossil record.

3. The production of new genetic information.

All of my evidence is based on objective data, data that is available to everybody regardless of religious or philosophical views. To understand the evidence that supports evolution does not require a conversion experience, or a revelation from a supernatural deity. Instead, this is evidence that can be touched, measured, and tested. Throughout this post I lay out ways in which the theory of evolution can be falsified by the very same kind of data: objective, measurable, testable data. I have also included illustrations from on line sources as well as references to peer reviewed literature to support my arguments. Without further adieu . . .


HERV's: Evidence of Common Ancestory

Certain types of viruses are able to insert their DNA or RNA into the host DNA. These types of viruses are called retroviruses. By doing so, they are able to take over the machinery of the host cell to make more virus particles. Retrovirus DNA is made up of various genes including an integrase which inserts the viral DNA into the host genome, an envelope gene which makes the outer protein coat of the virus, and various other genes necessary for reproducing viral particles. Also, on each end of the virus are sections called LTRs, or long tandem repeats. These are long stretches of a repeated sequence of DNA. All retroviruses have these characteristics.

A retrovirus has a particular mode of insertion. Different viruses tend to insert into different parts of the host genome. HIV, for instance, prefers to insert into areas with active host genes. These sites, called integration sites, are abundant within the host genome for each virus, numbering anywhere from 500 to 2,000 integration sites per host genome. Also, each integration site is usually between 100,000 to 250,000 DNA letters long (letters being the A, G, T, and C of the genetic code).[1] Taking the low number of 500 and the lower size of 100,000, this limits retrovirus insertion to about 50 million bases in the genome. This would mean that we could expect that one letter of DNA would be used twice every 50 million insertions. [url=http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=509299&action=stream&blobtype=jpg&blobname=pbio.0020234.g001.jpg]This figure[/url] shows 3,000 insertions by three different retroviruses. As you can see, the retroviral insertions are spread over all of the chromosomes in a random pattern. Not one nucleotide is used twice. There has never been a retrovirus that has been shown to insert at the same letter in the host genome even 0.001% of the time.

An analogy that helps me to visualize this process is an unabridged dictionary. Let's pretend that each letter of the dictionary (the A's, B's, etc.) represent a different chromosome. Let's also pretend that each letter in the dictionary represents a letter in the DNA sequence of the host genome. Now, close your eyes and flip through the pages. Randomly stop on a page, keeping your eyes shut, put your finger down on the page. Open your eyes and record the page number and the letter that you put your finger on. Next, pass the dictionary to someone else and have them repeat the procedure. What are the chances that you would both put your finger on the same letter on the same page? I would think this event is highly unlikely, almost like winning the lottery.

However, not all insertions go well for retroviruses. During rare events only part of the viral genome is inserted or a mutation occurs in one of the viral genes. This prevents an infection of the c

TG
Skeptic Friend

USA
121 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2004 :  14:24:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send TG a Private Message
"I will be presenting thee distinct pieces ..."

"thee"? Did you mean three, or these, or?
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2004 :  14:37:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Peptide a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by TG

"I will be presenting thee distinct pieces ..."

"thee"? Did you mean three, or these, or?



Hehe, rushed the intro a bit. It should be "three": ERV's, middle ear, and the nylon bug.

You can go to the debate here: http://skeptictimes.golivewire.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=367

The moderator states that the first post should contain three pieces of evidence, so my mistake shouldn't cause too much trouble.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2004 :  15:43:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
I would like to thank the crew at Skeptic Friends Network (PM me for the web address) for their help in editing and research. In particular (usernames): Ricky, Dr. Mabuse, Dave W, Dude, Filthy, BigPapaSmurf, Furshur, Cuneiformist, and Astropin. If I missed anybody I apologize.


hehehe, I'm first

Peptide, great post, I am very interesting to see their (failed) attempt a rebuttal. But now thinking about this, how are the rebuttals going to happen? Do you get one week after Jimi's post and Jimi gets one week after your rebuttal? If so, then he has 3 weeks for a rebuttal and you have 1. Or do you both post rebuttals at the same time? Or does he post his rebuttal before yours?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2004 :  18:13:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Peptide a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
hehehe, I'm first

Peptide, great post, I am very interesting to see their (failed) attempt a rebuttal. But now thinking about this, how are the rebuttals going to happen? Do you get one week after Jimi's post and Jimi gets one week after your rebuttal? If so, then he has 3 weeks for a rebuttal and you have 1. Or do you both post rebuttals at the same time? Or does he post his rebuttal before yours?



You got it. Jimi gets till this Friday to post his three evidences, giving him three weeks to work on a rebuttal and only one week for myself. I'm not worried, one week should be enough.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2004 :  03:31:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Peptide
Jimi gets till this Friday to post his three evidences, giving him three weeks to work on a rebuttal and only one week for myself. I'm not worried, one week should be enough.

We are all standing by...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2004 :  05:49:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Nicely done, Peptide. Wish I could write that well. I look forward to jimi's opener with baited breath (baited breath is why I have so few friends).

I wonder if it will contain anything that we haven't seen and taken apart before. I for one, would love to see some brand, new arguments.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2004 :  09:53:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Well done, Peptide. I was worried that the material you were presenting would be too disparate to make sense, you you've presented in a nice, logical manner. A good move was to point out how the evidence you use could just as easily be used to cast doubt on evolution. That is in fact confirms evolution makes it all the more compelling. I think that you should continue to point out how the theory of evolution can be and is tested.

A question, however: what are you going to present in your next post? Is there a specific topic required by the debate, or are you free to bring up any topic you like (besides rebuttals)?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2004 :  13:14:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
A question, however: what are you going to present in your next post? Is there a specific topic required by the debate, or are you free to bring up any topic you like (besides rebuttals)?

Once the first set of rebuttals are made, the debate is over.
It's one of the things that scares the life out of tkster: That we can show why jimi's rebuttals are invalid.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/17/2004 13:15:20
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  04:58:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Shouldnt be too hard weve been doing that for years, the trick is showing THEM that his rebuttals are invalid.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  06:25:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Shouldn't be too hard we've been doing that for years, the trick is showing THEM that his rebuttals are invalid.

That's my point... We are not allowed to address their rebuttals, only their initial statements.
Addressing Peptide's argument #2, they can say that the geologic record is invalid because it relies on the assumption of uniformitarianism, the speed of light has not been constant throughout history.
Now, we all know this is a false claim, but since the debate is concluded with the creationist rebuttal, we can't address it anywhere other than here at Skeptic Friends. And people over there will be none the wiser.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  06:58:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Shouldn't be too hard we've been doing that for years, the trick is showing THEM that his rebuttals are invalid.

That's my point... We are not allowed to address their rebuttals, only their initial statements.
Addressing Peptide's argument #2, they can say that the geologic record is invalid because it relies on the assumption of uniformitarianism, the speed of light has not been constant throughout history.
Now, we all know this is a false claim, but since the debate is concluded with the creationist rebuttal, we can't address it anywhere other than here at Skeptic Friends. And people over there will be none the wiser.

Agreed. But the posts will be up over there (if they don't get summarly shitcanned) and will be read. Perhaps they will make one or a couple sit down and think. If so, it will all have been worth it. And if not, well, Peptide gave it a damned good shot.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Peptide
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  11:57:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Peptide a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Agreed. But the posts will be up over there (if they don't get summarly shitcanned) and will be read. Perhaps they will make one or a couple sit down and think. If so, it will all have been worth it. And if not, well, Peptide gave it a damned good shot.





It sounds like the evo vs. creo debate forum will be reopened at skeptictimes after the debate is over. This will allow me to address inconsistencies in jimi's rebuttals if I am not allowed to do it in the debate. By taking the high road they will not be able to kick me off the site for any other reason than being too convincing. Let's hope that the forum is reopened to open debates.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  12:42:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Peptide

quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Agreed. But the posts will be up over there (if they don't get summarly shitcanned) and will be read. Perhaps they will make one or a couple sit down and think. If so, it will all have been worth it. And if not, well, Peptide gave it a damned good shot.





It sounds like the evo vs. creo debate forum will be reopened at skeptictimes after the debate is over. This will allow me to address inconsistencies in jimi's rebuttals if I am not allowed to do it in the debate. By taking the high road they will not be able to kick me off the site for any other reason than being too convincing. Let's hope that the forum is reopened to open debates.

Hope so, but if past record is any guide, the moderation will be right out of the frantic wing of the Republican Party. But, mayhaps I'm wrong. We'll see.

I again complement you on an excellent presentation.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  13:46:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
the moderation will be right out of the frantic wing of the Republican Party


Odd thing to note, tk will actually be voting for Kerry.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2004 :  14:02:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
tk will actually be voting for Kerry


Sure he will......

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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