|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2004 : 12:26:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Siberia:
Well, his girlfriend is atheist (or so she says)... and still has the wild connotation Creation is real. How Creation is real without a god is a mystery.
Actually, she advocates punctuated equilibrium as opposed to slow and steady change. Of course, she doesn't seem to understand that Gould never suggested that mechanisms for evolution were mutually exclusive. She presented a rather weird case for the exclusion of gradual natural selection. But all in all, she seems to be ok with the idea that evolution happens. She even offered to debate Jimi on the subject. I did not get that she is a creationist.
As for tk and his agnostic/atheism, I am going to wait and see how this change in thinking manifests itself. Guess I'm saying that with all of the weirdness not withstanding, right now, I'm inclined give him the benefit of the doubt...
I see. That clears her out. I must've confused myself. But that still leaves his position as an agnostic/atheist supporting creationism, no? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
 |
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 12:33:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Siberia:
But that still leaves his position as an agnostic/atheist supporting creationism, no?
Who knows? He has made no statement about that. But if you remove a creator from the mix, it would be pretty hard to be a supporter of creationism, eh? That doesn't mean it would be impossible to not accept evolution. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 12:55:07 [Permalink]
|
Creation requires a creator, I have never heard of a non-deity creator. Agnostisism means non-commital so saying you believe in a creator means you are not agnostic, therefor Agnostic/Atheist Creationist is an oxymoron, not happening sorry.
Please pass my veiled insults on the TKster, or thwart him as you see fit. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 14:17:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Creation requires a creator, I have never heard of a non-deity creator. Agnostisism means non-commital so saying you believe in a creator means you are not agnostic, therefor Agnostic/Atheist Creationist is an oxymoron, not happening sorry.
Please pass my veiled insults on the TKster, or thwart him as you see fit.
How about the equally absurd "advance FTL race genetic meddling" crack pipe dream..... I mean hypothesis? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 14:40:11 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Creation requires a creator, I have never heard of a non-deity creator.
Raël has a different opinion. So does good ol' Däniken. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 14:43:49 [Permalink]
|
Thanks go to River for pointing out this thread, in which tkster says,...people do change and after serious outlook in Biology, I do admit Evolution sounds acceptable. In fact, if evolutionists stuck with "poor design" arguments against creationists, they could easily win debates. It is obvious that if God exists, he's an idiot. Unfortunately, evolutionists bring up poor design constantly, and are "rebutted" with "it's God's Divine Will, not poor design. He's got a reason for the way are knees are made which is perfect." Such an argument easily "wins" debates with those who don't know that such is not science. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 16:33:54 [Permalink]
|
I almost can't believe I have to say this. But if I don't believe in God's existence, that would make it hard for me to be a Creationist right? I accept Evolution under Gould's model presented in his book The Structure of Evolutionary Theory.
And I don't like the term "don't believe in God" really, as it's not a belief but a lack thereof. I don't have the belief in the Judeo-Christian God, as He is portrayed as an intelligent Creator, and I don't see that in nature.
take care,
tk |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 18:27:58 [Permalink]
|
You'll have to forgive me, tkster, but I find it difficult to believe that you go from endorsing jackasses like Hovind a couple weeks ago, to now stating that you find the evidence for evolution acceptable this week?
That you go from somebody who would publish a website that uses a sack of lies and misrepresentations to try and discredit evolution, to now finding the evidence to support evolution acceptable?
You go from being a professed creationist and YEC a couple of weeks ago, but now you are an atheist or an agnostic?
To go from somebody who claims to offer a huge cash award to anyone who "proves" evolution (because you clearly don't buy into evolution), to now accepting the evidence for this claim you ridicule heavily just a few short weeks ago?
I, for one, disbelieve anything you say. You have proven yourself to be a liar (just look at your website), have ridiculed and discriminated against atheists, and on several occasions claimed to have refuted all arguments for evolution.
What possible reason would I (or anyone for that matter) have to believe that you now accept evolution and are now an atheist?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:07:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
I almost can't believe I have to say this. But if I don't believe in God's existence, that would make it hard for me to be a Creationist right? I accept Evolution under Gould's model presented in his book The Structure of Evolutionary Theory.
And I don't like the term "don't believe in God" really, as it's not a belief but a lack thereof. I don't have the belief in the Judeo-Christian God, as He is portrayed as an intelligent Creator, and I don't see that in nature.
Hey, tkster, welcome back. I look forward to reading more about your sudden conversion from hard-core Young Earth Creationism to evolution (I haven't read Gould's book so I can't comment on his model, but it doubtless is more or less what conventional biologists hold). After you send out your latest newsletter, I hope you'll make a point to stop by the SFN more often! |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:17:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
You'll have to forgive me, tkster, but I find it difficult to believe that you go from endorsing jackasses like Hovind a couple weeks ago, to now stating that you find the evidence for evolution acceptable this week?
That you go from somebody who would publish a website that uses a sack of lies and misrepresentations to try and discredit evolution, to now finding the evidence to support evolution acceptable?
You go from being a professed creationist and YEC a couple of weeks ago, but now you are an atheist or an agnostic?
To go from somebody who claims to offer a huge cash award to anyone who "proves" evolution (because you clearly don't buy into evolution), to now accepting the evidence for this claim you ridicule heavily just a few short weeks ago?
I, for one, disbelieve anything you say. You have proven yourself to be a liar (just look at your website), have ridiculed and discriminated against atheists, and on several occasions claimed to have refuted all arguments for evolution.
What possible reason would I (or anyone for that matter) have to believe that you now accept evolution and are now an atheist?
In all honesty, don't believe a word I say because it makes no difference. If I am playing a game, I can't gain anything ANYWAY. People change, it happens, what can I say. I didn't change overnight, I've had my doubts for a while now, but I kept them secret. Everyone does, and those secrets burst. That is what happened.
So don't believe me, it makes no difference to me. I am what I am whether you think so or not.
Edit - Besides the fact that it wouldn't be very skeptical to accept everything I say just because I say it right?
take care,
tk |
| Edited by - tkster on 11/22/2004 19:23:54 |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:20:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Hey, tkster, welcome back.
Thanks.
quote:
I look forward to reading more about your sudden conversion from hard-core Young Earth Creationism to evolution
It wasn't sudden. My professor Dr. Held has been working on me all semester. I began having my doubts as early as August so far as I can remember. But I'll appear on the IG show and hope to answer some of the reasons I left.
quote:
(I haven't read Gould's book so I can't comment on his model, but it doubtless is more or less what conventional biologists hold).
It is a good book, I recommend it.
quote:
After you send out your latest newsletter, I hope you'll make a point to stop by the SFN more often!
I've had a lot of people IG ask me the same thing and my answer is the same. If people want me, I'll stay, if they don't I'm not going to disrupt someone's forum for it.
take care,
tk |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:22:06 [Permalink]
|
quote:
ou'll have to forgive me, tkster, but I find it difficult to believe that you go from endorsing jackasses like Hovind a couple weeks ago, to now stating that you find the evidence for evolution acceptable this week?
That you go from somebody who would publish a website that uses a sack of lies and misrepresentations to try and discredit evolution, to now finding the evidence to support evolution acceptable?
You go from being a professed creationist and YEC a couple of weeks ago, but now you are an atheist or an agnostic?
To go from somebody who claims to offer a huge cash award to anyone who "proves" evolution (because you clearly don't buy into evolution), to now accepting the evidence for this claim you ridicule heavily just a few short weeks ago?
I, for one, disbelieve anything you say. You have proven yourself to be a liar (just look at your website), have ridiculed and discriminated against atheists, and on several occasions claimed to have refuted all arguments for evolution.
What possible reason would I (or anyone for that matter) have to believe that you now accept evolution and are now an atheist?
Dude, I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to accept someone going straight from YEC and a Hovind fan to atheist/agnostic and an evolutionist. I must say I don't trust him very much myself. But lets wait this one out shall we? Why predict the future when we can just let it happen and see where it goes. Tkster has been making some posts over at the infidel site and will even be appearing on their radio program this friday.
Do you really think he is just trying to lead hundreds of people on? What is the point? What is the reason? I see none.
tkster told me in an AIM conversation that I could divulge information given there, but I'm not sure if he was reffering to a certain portion or the entire thing. So tkster, if you want any of this removed just ask.
I had the same question as you did, Dude. How could this happen overnight? tkster claims to have been considering his beliefs for the past 6 months, questioning and debating them within his own mind. He claims to only appear to have a strong Christian stance because he was the administrator and in his mind the administrator must be firm (I have no idea on the validity of this, maybe a mod or admin here would like to comment?).
Whether this is true or not, I can't really say. As I said before, I am going to wait it out and see what happens. Whether he is an evolutionist and atheist/agnostic or not, I continue to hold the claim that he is not a skeptic. I will withdraw this claim when/if I see his logic and reasoning change.
|
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
|
|
|
tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:32:11 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Dude, I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to accept someone going straight from YEC and a Hovind fan to atheist/agnostic and an evolutionist. I must say I don't trust him very much myself. But lets wait this one out shall we? Why predict the future when we can just let it happen and see where it goes. Tkster has been making some posts over at the infidel site and will even be appearing on their radio program this friday.
That's right. If I get off work and all goes as planned I'll be on IG this weekend (Friday).
quote:
Do you really think he is just trying to lead hundreds of people on? What is the point? What is the reason? I see none.
If I am lying about this, there would be reason for both sides to disrespect me, and both sides would.
quote:
I had the same question as you did, Dude. How could this happen overnight? tkster claims to have been considering his beliefs for the past 6 months, questioning and debating them within his own mind. He claims to only appear to have a strong Christian stance because he was the administrator and in his mind the administrator must be firm (I have no idea on the validity of this, maybe a mod or admin here would like to comment?).
The point is that it was a Christian forum and I didn't want to ask questions there. So I'd ask questions and doubts to friends, and colleagues. People like my professors or Pastors, not a bunch of teens on a forum who don't know much anyway. This is just my personal taste anyway. As a member of a Teen forum, they don't provide much help except to well ... Teens. When I need answers to my questions, I try to go to the "experts" or people that I think know what they are dealing with.
take care,
tk |
| Edited by - tkster on 11/22/2004 19:47:09 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:45:36 [Permalink]
|
Again, I am inclined to give tkster the benefit of the doubt. And, I welcome his posts here at SFN...
edited to add:
Also, changing a belief is not an easy thing to do. And, changing a belief that one is so identified with, publicly, must make it doubly hard to do. tkster is saying he was wrong. I would cut the guy some slack...
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
