|
|
|
Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2004 : 05:36:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
forcing a draft within the next two years.
Outof curiousity, how real is the chance of a draft in the US? |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
 |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 05:44:07 [Permalink]
|
I don't think it's likely with reasonable people, but we're not talking about reasonable people.
Reasonable people learned in Vietnam that the "leadership" is more accountable to the people when you draft their sons. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 05:53:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Who is next? Iran? Syria? Or some other pissant country that can't fight back?
Or will it be Brazil? Because they're already accusing us of smuggling nuclear compounds out of our country, a totally unfounded assertion (as far as I, in my humble poor mortal self, know). Note the fact our country never went to war, except the World I&II ones, and would be totally crushed. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 06:42:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
forcing a draft within the next two years.
Outof curiousity, how real is the chance of a draft in the US?
I don't think it's a realistic possibility. The numbers of dead in Iraq are still far below Vietnam, and we're supposedly pulling back in Europe-- a move that will presumably free up more troops for Iraq.
Still, all it takes is one more invasion to change things dramatically... |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 06:59:29 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
I was driving home from a well-deserved week off and listened to it all unfold on the seven hour drive. I am to be quite honest, shattered that this man could get back in.
If any politician in Australia was a miserable failure like this man they would have been shown the door quick smart. Even though our conservative government got voted back in, at least our economy is going great guns and we are 70 odd billion in the black. I am worried what is going to happen in the next couple of years. Whether the extreme right wing agenda will continue.
Will Roe vs. Wade be overturned by the new Supreme Court?
Will you deficit become so large, that our exporters will be unable to compete due to an over inflated Australian dollar?
Will progressive thinking be stifled?
Will creationism be bought back into schools?
Will PA2 come into fruition?
Will women lose the right over their own bodies?
Will Brittany Spears still be allowed to make a mockery of marriage whilst any loving homosexuals will continue to be persecuted?
Will the Bush doctrine of pre-emption become commonplace?
Who is next? Iran? Syria? Or some other pissant country that can't fight back?
Of course it all will, the fucking world is going backwards and it pisses me off.
I bet the people of Falujah are preparing for the onslaught that will happen in the next week or so, I recently read that the people in Falujah are compensated US$2,500 for the death of any family member, somewhat less if the said person is of military age. So that is the value of an Iraqi life.
What is the world coming to?
You forgot a couple.
Will American SFN members be arrested for sedition?
Will SFN be blocked in America or closed down by America?
Will America attack any other nation that disagrees with us?
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 07:22:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
forcing a draft within the next two years.
Outof curiousity, how real is the chance of a draft in the US?
It'd take them 18 months to institute one if they started today.
I've heard reports that recruitment is meeting their quotas for taking in new people, but the standing force size constraint has not been expanded to meet these new needs. The military will need to add at least two divisions to really address this. The usage of the National Guard has been to prevent having to expand the standing forces of the US military.
Realistically, the longer the killing drags on, the harder it's going to be to fill the key positions that they need.
Of course, all of this will cost a significant amount of money and was fiscally unpopular with Congressmen who were seeking re-election.
I'd say that the government will pass a force expansion bill first and then wait to see if the services can fill it with volunteer help first. If they fall well short of quotas, then they might consider a draft.
IMHO, we're talking 3+ years at the minimum. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 08:51:08 [Permalink]
|
The implication of those voting for Bush, and pro-conservative as "Stupid Rednecks" is a gross underestimation. Perhaps the GOP/Karl Rove was banking on the backlash. It worked. Over the next 4 years look to the GOP to be more friendly and "rational". They won't appoint any SJC who will remove Roe V Wade. Too partisan to do that. They are going to solidify their positions and demonize the Democrats and liberals.
The Democrats should have
1.) Redefined the "War on Terrorism" to focus on Islamic Facism. That is what this "war on terror" is about (that and perhaps oil). We not going after the IRA, ULF, KKK, FARC, Red Brigades, ETA.
2.) Focussed on bringing back Pay-As-You-Go and bringing up the Deficit.
3.) Stop this whole "I promise to give you jobs" slogan. The President can't do that and it just plays to emotions
Cheney will have a scandal (or a heart attack) and he will step down. There will be a court case and at the end of Bush's term, he will be pardoned. That is just my thought
Tim,
I stand corrected on Madison religion. My point however is taking a quote out of context. The quote in the signature comes from a letter to William Bradford.
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_7_3.asp
For the board, as a fundie Christian, I am apalled at politicians who use the faith for political gain. You know...the ones who cry out about the attack on the sanctity of marriage, yet have gone through 2 divorces and 3 affairs. The ones who claim the sanctity life begins at conception but do nothing for the orphan, the working mother, the poor shmoe in Iraq. It's just hypocrisy.
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 09:12:21 [Permalink]
|
| The only issue I have with it is freedom of religion and there are more than a few sects who have no issues with gay marriage, so why should the US gov? Anyway for anyone who knows an ambitious lawyer theres a unconstitutional arguement right there. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 10:30:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The implication of those voting for Bush, and pro-conservative as "Stupid Rednecks" is a gross underestimation.
No, it's not. Most of you voted on a single issue, and ignored most of the major concerns. The primary issue with voters who voted FOR Bush was "morals". The war in Iraq, the economy, environment, ect, ALL took second seat to the people who voted FOR Bush.
Translation: Most of the people who voted for Bush are stupid, uninformed, rednecks.
Face it Rubicon, your fellow christians MOSTLY don't think as you apparently do. If only more did.
The republican spin machine hammers it's listeners/viewers constantly with the spin, never with the raw info, and once it's repeated often enough even people whom I normally respect start to spout back the spin, instead of the facts. It's sickening that so many people forfiet their option to think for themselves.
And Madison was a baptist? rofl.... seems you have fallen for the lies spread by the fundies who'd like to have you all believe that the founding fathers were fundie christians.
None of the major players in the writing of our second constitution were christian. Mostly they were unitarian or some type of natural law deist.
As to the Madison quote in my signature, yes, it's from a letter he wrote. But can you imagine that anyone who would use that phrase, in ANY context, would be a supporter of any organized religion?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 10:44:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The Democrats should have
1.) Redefined the "War on Terrorism" to focus on Islamic Facism. That is what this "war on terror" is about (that and perhaps oil). We not going after the IRA, ULF, KKK, FARC, Red Brigades, ETA.
So, after reading your post a second time.....
Are you really suggesting that we should define the imaginary "war on terror" as a war on "Islamic Facism"?
I'm not sure that would play well.... heh.
But I do agree that the "war on terror" needs to be defined. I find it amazing that anyone capable of breathing and walking at the same time would be OK with letting the president declare an unofficial war against an unspecified enemy with no criteria for victory stated in advance.
You do understand that our "war on terror" is nothing more than a political tool, like the "war on drugs", and the "war on crime", and the "war on poverty", and ect....
The "war on terror" is, for further clarification, a nebulous war against a stateless enemy, with no clear criteria for victory. By the standards already set forth in the Bush Doctrine for premptive war, we SHOULD be invading Iran, Syria, and N Korea.... in order to remain logically consistent with statements made and positions taken by Bush, anyway.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 10:53:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The implication of those voting for Bush, and pro-conservative as "Stupid Rednecks" is a gross underestimation.
No, it's not. Most of you voted on a single issue, and ignored most of the major concerns. The primary issue with voters who voted FOR Bush was "morals". The war in Iraq, the economy, environment, ect, ALL took second seat to the people who voted FOR Bush.
Translation: Most of the people who voted for Bush are stupid, uninformed, rednecks.
Face it Rubicon, your fellow christians MOSTLY don't think as you apparently do. If only more did.
The republican spin machine hammers it's listeners/viewers constantly with the spin, never with the raw info, and once it's repeated often enough even people whom I normally respect start to spout back the spin, instead of the facts. It's sickening that so many people forfiet their option to think for themselves.
And Madison was a baptist? rofl.... seems you have fallen for the lies spread by the fundies who'd like to have you all believe that the founding fathers were fundie christians.
None of the major players in the writing of our second constitution were christian. Mostly they were unitarian or some type of natural law deist.
As to the Madison quote in my signature, yes, it's from a letter he wrote. But can you imagine that anyone who would use that phrase, in ANY context, would be a supporter of any organized religion?
Dude,
Rubicon admitted error about Madison being a Baptist.
Secondly, we all have primary issues and secondary. "Morals", in this case, represents a myriad of topics of social concern.
Polls rarely give you the option of saying that a grouping of issues are your primary motivators. They try to boil it down to a single word or phrase. I think your characterization of Christian Fundie supporters is unfair.
Bush appealed to the moral issues (which the GOP tied into through devisive measures in battleground states to maximize voter turnout) of an energized base. He also has sold some on the supply side economics model and tax breaks for the rich through trickle down economics.
Just demonizing an entire sector of the populous because they voted with religious motivation and an incomplete knowledge of economics is rash generalization. You've got better arguements than this partisan crap.
Kerry was put on the defensive by Swift Boat Veterans and his attempt to keep the discussion focused on the economy and rising national debt failed. He should have addressed this sooner, but didn't.
This election was about voter turnout. The GOP did a much better job of it than they had in the past. The Democrats energized the young voters and they came out in record numbers. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 11:46:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
...The "war on terror" is, for further clarification, a nebulous war against a stateless enemy, with no clear criteria for victory. By the standards already set forth in the Bush Doctrine for premptive war, we SHOULD be invading Iran, Syria, and N Korea.... in order to remain logically consistent with statements made and positions taken by Bush, anyway.
Yes, and so the "war on terror" can also be directed against anyone, including American citizens. And since it is on-going, it will likely eventually be used as leverage in maintaining the Bush-Neocon dynasty. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 11:51:08 [Permalink]
|
I'd like to agree again with Valiant Dancer. The GOP did get their base out. The Dems did, also. But, I need to retract my earlier statement of the Dems getting the youth vote out. While youth registration was up, the actual vote, according to exit polls, was roughly the same as that of the 2000 election. I guess there's a difference in signing a peice of paper someone brings to you and actually getting off of your duff and going to the polling place. Priorities.
Plus, most of the founding fathers of this country were Christians, though the primary authors of the Constitution were often Deists. And, yes, there were even a couple of Unitarians, John Adams among them. However, the comparison of Christianity in the mid to late eighteenth century to that of today is erroneous. The comparison becomes even more nebulous when we include modern fundamentalists. The worlds of science and religion have both changed far too much.
Personally, I believe that many people follow Bush and company out of fear and nationalistic pride. We are begining to lose our technicological, industrial and political leadership within the world. We rely far too much on imported natural resources, and are deeply in debt to our trading partners that look to us less and less for leadership. All we have to fall back on is our military might.
People like Rove and company turn this fear into an irrational excuse for consolidating power into a single base, using social issues as a focal point of what some consider it is to be an American.
The draft may be reinstated earlier than many think if this administration continues to allow the neocons to dictate foriegn policy. Remeber, these people have an agenda to control the world's energy resources through military interdiction. Another middle east war may be coming before Iraq is settled and Afganistan may worsen because of our neglect.
Furthermore, the cost of war is not an issue with the neocons. Why should they worry about debt if they control the world's natural resources?
|
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 12:38:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
I'd like to agree again with Valiant Dancer. The GOP did get their base out. The Dems did, also. But, I need to retract my earlier statement of the Dems getting the youth vote out. While youth registration was up, the actual vote, according to exit polls, was roughly the same as that of the 2000 election. I guess there's a difference in signing a peice of paper someone brings to you and actually getting off of your duff and going to the polling place. Priorities.
Actually, they did turn out.
http://www.civicyouth.org/PopUps/Release_Turnout2004.pdf
They had an increase of 4.6 million voters over 2000. In 2000, the under 30 yote turnout was 42.3%. It was 51.6% in 2004.
The percentage of youth voters as compared to all voters remained flat due to an increased voter turnout in general. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 14:02:57 [Permalink]
|
Dude,
I vote Libertarian. I don't go for the Coke and Pepsi political parties anymore.
Politics is the art of persuasion. Democracy just put's in on grand scale. The GOP was just better at coercing others than the Democrats did. It's not evil nor good. It just is. We all do it here on blog. Coerce each other to agree to our view.
A War on Islamic Facism yeah..doesn't have that nice ring as (kettle drum sound) "The War on Terrorism". Maybe the Al-Qaeda War would be better. As it stands it is nebulous, directionless, without goals, and could go really Orwellian.
Yeah "moral issues" was one of the keys to Bush's win. Also Kerry ignoring Missouri was another. Trickle down economics won't work because it implies that human nature is altruistic. That takes a little faith, religious or humanistic.
I liked Tim's observation.
The Founding Fathers were of the Christian Faith, just not the Fred Roberts type. (Gotta clean my keyboard after that LYSOL!!!!). They were also products of the Enlightenment and did not want the religious wars to happen in America as they did in Europe. My opinion the Founders were better educated than most modern people.
By saying Madison was opposed organized religion, I am going to infer that you mean State Sponsorship of Religion. You'll get no objections from me. I agree with you.
But this is a digression.
What to do now? Get active. Just because the election is over doesn't mean you can't voice your opinion. Petition. Get involved in grass roots movement and persevere. Or in the words of Fredrick Douglass "Agitate, Agitate, Agitate". |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
