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 So we're in Iraq. How should we leave and why?
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  05:17:21  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
By the way, in this "mission accomplished" war, nobody seems to call it anything but "the war in Iraq" or "Iraq War". Maybe that's because of all the people dying everyday.
Anyway, now that US is there (and some allies), should we continue to fight the insurgents till we prevail, or just pull out, or some other option?

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  05:36:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Again, we need to impeach Bush for his crimes, apologize to the people of the world and pull out. We can't leave the problem to criminals to solve.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  05:46:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

By the way, in this "mission accomplished" war, nobody seems to call it anything but "the war in Iraq" or "Iraq War". Maybe that's because of all the people dying everyday.
Anyway, now that US is there (and some allies), should we continue to fight the insurgents till we prevail, or just pull out, or some other option?


It sounds horrible to say, but I'm not sure it won't take a generation before it's safe for the US (and our scores few allies) to pull out.

The objective, as it's now clear, of the war was to create a stable American European-style democracy in Iraq. My guess is that creating that sort of mentality in a culture that has lived for decades-- er, really, centuries-- under a monarchy or dictatorship will take a long time.

Vital are things like a free press, and that will take time to establish with any sort of success. Similarly, you'll need a strong economy. Being poor, uneducated, and jobless in the Middle East seems more to lead to terrorism, not democracy. Not yet, anyway.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  06:01:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
The goal is U.S. hegemony in the area with a South-Vietnamese style pseudo-democracy.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  07:31:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

By the way, in this "mission accomplished" war, nobody seems to call it anything but "the war in Iraq" or "Iraq War". Maybe that's because of all the people dying everyday.
Anyway, now that US is there (and some allies), should we continue to fight the insurgents till we prevail, or just pull out, or some other option?



Should we continue to fight over there? Well we did make this mess through President Troll, we should fix it. I believe that diplomacy has to play a major part. We need to engage the nations of the world and convince them that the terrorists are gaining a foothold due to the bungling/malfeasence of the current administration and ask for their help. We need to get a truely international force over there preferrably made up of significant numbers of Arab allies. (Seems like an oxymoron in light of the current administration's foreign policy, but definately something that must be done.)

So far we are talking about starting to build the relationships in four years time when Capt Asshole and the Fuck Up Brigade are out of office. So, we will need to fully train and protect the fledgeling Iraqi police force and military until they can protect themselves. That will take people on the ground. So a force expansion will be required preferrably two divisions worth. The borders of Iraq have to be secured and the insurgents rooted out and destroyed.

Impeaching the current sitting President and shipping him in irons to The Hague would make the job easier and get a jump on the diplomacy part of the plan.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/05/2004 07:32:53
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  07:49:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Valiant Dancer, not that I'm a religious kind of guy but... Amen to that!

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/05/2004 13:08:50
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  11:18:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Should Saddam Hussein have stayed in Kuwait and "fixed it?"

No. Criminals should abandon their crime and leave the scene of the crime as soon as possible. This is a criminal action. It was undertaken to make sure that the U.S. remains the single hyperpower, among other reasons. It was not made for the benefit of the average person in the U.S. or Iraq.

It is an illegal invasion. Arrest Bush, arrest the Generals who obeyed illegal orders and get out.

quote:

Should we continue to fight over there? Well we did make this mess through President Troll, we should fix it.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  12:10:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Should Saddam Hussein have stayed in Kuwait and "fixed it?"


No, but there was an occupying force to keep the peace from the outside after Hussein was blasted from it. We don't have that option in Iraq.

quote:

No. Criminals should abandon their crime and leave the scene of the crime as soon as possible. This is a criminal action. It was undertaken to make sure that the U.S. remains the single hyperpower, among other reasons. It was not made for the benefit of the average person in the U.S. or Iraq.

It is an illegal invasion. Arrest Bush, arrest the Generals who obeyed illegal orders and get out.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Should we continue to fight over there? Well we did make this mess through President Troll, we should fix it.



And who keeps the peace in Iraq when the troops leave, Gorgo? Guaranteed civil war right off the bat. We blew up the force that was keeping the lid on the country, now we should train the replacement force. Ideally, other countries would move in to take over peacekeeping operations, but thats an ideal, not a reality.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/05/2004 12:12:31
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  12:28:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Who is keeping the "peace" now? No one. It's the U.S. presence that's causing chaos.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  13:45:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
The U.S. presence is keeping things calm, believe it or not. What is going on now is nothing comparied to what will happen if we pull out. The groups that have been fighting us will start fighting each other for control of the country and a masive civil war will result. If you think the death toll is high now, wait until we pull out.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  14:34:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Paulos wrote:
quote:
The U.S. presence is keeping things calm, believe it or not. What is going on now is nothing comparied to what will happen if we pull out. The groups that have been fighting us will start fighting each other for control of the country and a masive civil war will result. If you think the death toll is high now, wait until we pull out.
And to further this line of thought: the civil was will do much in the way of damaging mosques and everything else, and the rest of the world will wonder why the U.S. didn't stick around to protect these things along with the thousands more that will die.

In other words, we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. The only way to really fix this is to go back in time and prevent the war from starting. There is no exit strategy, and can be no exit strategy, which doesn't involve the U.S. coming out smelling like anything but a shitheap.

Perhaps the least-shitty answer would be to first impeach Bush, and once he's out of the way, have Congress reach out to the U.N., and ask for help in repairing the damage that idiot caused.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  15:25:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Congress is part of the problem. We need to impeach Congress.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  15:32:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
The U.S. has lost all credibility. Anything the U.S. does in Iraq will be suspect. If the U.S. arranges for the U.N. or some Arab presence, that will be seen as suspect. There is no hope for any peace while the United States is seen to be part of the solution.

They need to admit their crimes and leave. Now.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  21:50:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
I'm not so sure the Iraq War is a cut and dry case. Many believe we're there to fight the "terrorists" on their own ground. Some of us believe that our presence is like honey to a bee, attracting the terrorists and tempting them to come and kill us. Either way, the soldiers are just obeying orders. It's up to us citizens to do something about the situation. Many of us tried to throw Bush out of office, but failed. So now what? Throw up our hands and walk away...we can do that, but the soldiers can't. They are in hostile territory trying to stay alive. We are in our comfy homes, typing away on our computers, trying to think of a way out and what to do. Whatever we decide, we'll have no affect on the Bush Administration policy unless we do something...but I digress. First, we need a realistic goal. Just pulling the troops out does not seem to be a likely option at this time. Too many people don't want our country to fail in this war...of course it was a failure of moral values to initiate this war, in my opinion. It was a war of choice and not necessity and, therefore, an unjust war. Be that as it may, what are the realistic options?

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2004 :  22:03:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Perhaps the least-shitty answer would be to first impeach Bush, and once he's out of the way, have Congress reach out to the U.N., and ask for help in repairing the damage that idiot caused.


I agree for the most part, except I think that instead of asking the U.N. for help repairing damage, we should be a lot more general and ask the U.N. what we should do. We need to respect U.N. authority (any South Park fans out there?) and show them that we will cooperate in order to gain the respect of all the countries which make it up.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2004 :  04:53:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
The U.S. has shown that it has no concern for international (or domestic-see article 6 of the Constitution) law. The U.S. has to get out and clean its own house for a while before it makes any credible claim to be able to "fix" anything. War never fixed anything anyway, it only made things worse.

Yugoslavia was another good example of that.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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