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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  12:12:15  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
I have heard some skeptics claim to be open minded when it comes to the truth of paranormal claims. Unfortunetly what I see is closed minds. Those who claim not to be True Believers really are. they believe that only science can explain the paranormal. Surely not all who see aliens, ghosts, etc are mad . Let us not neglect the data just because it does not fit our theories. What is science anyway? Just another invention of man.
[Moved to the General Skepticism folder - Dave W.]

Storm

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  12:31:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

I have heard some skeptics claim to be open minded when it comes to the truth of paranormal claims. Unfortunetly what I see is closed minds. Those who claim not to be True Believers really are. they believe that only science can explain the paranormal. Surely not all who see aliens, ghosts, etc are mad . Let us not neglect the data just because it does not fit our theories. What is science anyway? Just another invention of man.



Well, Storm, noone here is suggesting that people don't experience things or see things that are unexplained at the time. However, Many of these are explainable.

Science is the tool by which fantastic claims (and normal ones too) are judged. If you can provide a single instance of paranormal activity which has certifiable scientific proof of an extranormal source, you'll find a lot of converts here.

From my personal experiences with the paranormal world, I can absolutely say that I believe it exists, yet I have no evidence sans my personal experiences to convince others. This is not a means of scientific proof.

My primary experiences revolve around intelligent hauntings. I worked in a theater which was haunted. I experienced cold spots, some poltergeist activities, and one full form apparition. Whether these were tricks of the mind or actual paranormal beings I cannot absolutely say as I have not scientifically studied them.

When claims of EVP are made, (and I've watched my share of shows on them) I recognize the human brains prewiring to recognize patterns. I heard different words on the recordings than the "analyst" heard.

It's not a matter of data not fitting our theories, it's a matter of the data having multiple explainations and the data not being analysed to discount or exclude the normal explainations.

Science is not an invention. It is a methodology of examining the world around us. This methodology removes such ambiguities such as supposition, faith, and irrational belief. It concentrates on the real and provable. Parapsychology and the paranormal are currently unprovable.

Your form over substance logical fallacy with prejudicial language fallacy is duely noted and discarded due to lack of proof/evidence. The way an arguement is presented has no bearing on the truth value of the arguement.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  12:36:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

I have heard some skeptics claim to be open minded when it comes to the truth of paranormal claims. Unfortunetly what I see is closed minds. Those who claim not to be True Believers really are. they believe that only science can explain the paranormal. Surely not all who see aliens, ghosts, etc are mad . Let us not neglect the data just because it does not fit our theories. What is science anyway? Just another invention of man.

Hi Storm and welcome!

Not closed-minded at all. It's just that we would like to see some supporting, emperical evidence before we accept these claims. Thus far, there has been none.

Science is more of an attempt, backed by existing, emperical evidence, at explaining phenomena. This can be anything from looking at paranormal claims to developing vaccines and beyond.

No, they aren't all mad. Indeed, most are sober and reliable citizens. They have seen an explainable phenonina and mistaken it for paranormal nonsense because they didn't have a ready explanition for it. And the loosely-hinged picked up on it.

Do you have evidence? If so, please present it.

Again, welcome to SFN.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  12:44:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Hi, and welcome Storm.

Science has never neglected the data just because it didn't fit. What science is about is coming up with new theories to make new data fit. Not all who have seen aliens, ghosts, and other paranormal activities are mad. However there are explanations. dd

Being insane is certainly one of them. Another, especially when talking about aliens, is something called sleep paralysis. I won't go into it too much here, but it can cause hallucinations as well as the feeling like a block is pressing on your chest. You also are unable to move.

Another explanation are just hallucinations in general. Your eyes can play tricks on you. Seeing some weird light is certainly not enough to claim its an alien spaceship.

As for ghosts, much of that is a weird "feeling" you get when you walk into a room. It can be called really nothing more than a mental placebo. You see an old spooky house and you think you feel something weird, when it is you who create that feeling in the first place. Other ghost "evidence" is people claiming to see things, certainly not evidence at all. Others are photographs which have small effects which appear to be haunted, but they are really just side effects from taking real pictures. They could happen anywhere.

You also can not rule out the possibility of hoaxers, people who are frauds claiming something they completely make up.

Another explanation has to do with hypnosis. Hypnosis can be described as a state of mind that is highly suggestible. So under hypnosis, if they hypnotist asks, "Were you abducted by aliens?" the person automatically thinks they have been.

Another interesting point is that people claiming to see aliens normally describe them as popular images of their time period. This leads to the conclusion that people are seeing the image on T.V. then creating it in their mind as if it were real.

Read the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, its a great book explaining paranormal activities, a lot is focused around aliens.

quote:
What is science anyway? Just another invention of man.


Yes, science was created by man. However, it is an over simplification of what science really is. Science is the best way we have to describe our universe. Science is the reason why you are able to use a computer right now. Science is responsible for the actions that happen every time you flick a light switch. Science is the reason why you no longer have to go take a crap outside.

It is anything but “Just another invention of man.”

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  13:08:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
The evidence of ghosts lies not within the dogma of science but in the never ending testimonies of the public.....

Science must break free of the ball and chain of Spiritualism...

Death is just as physical, psychological, and emotional as life itself....

Storm Stone
Journal of A Ghost Hunter
Copyright 20004

Storm
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:03:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
The evidence of ghosts lies not within the dogma of science but in the never ending testimonies of the public.....



Testimonies don't lead to anything. If you asked most people what percentage of their brain they used, many would respond 10%. Does this mean that number is right? Not at all, in fact its horribly wrong.

Hearsay is not acceptable. People just saying so is never considered evidence. They do lead us to look for evidence, but so far none has been found. Again, if you have evidence, please present it.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:13:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

The evidence of ghosts lies not within the dogma of science but in the never ending testimonies of the public.....


Then it is not evidence. Merely anectdotes without a deeper study of the alledged phenomenon. There is no dogma of science. Just a methodology.

To blow an absolutely huge hole in the arguementum ad populum logical fallacy you are forwarding, I would like to remind you that over 40% of the American public still believe that Iraq was connected to 9/11.

quote:

Science must break free of the ball and chain of Spiritualism...


Subverted support fallacy.

quote:

Death is just as physical, psychological, and emotional as life itself....

Storm Stone
Journal of A Ghost Hunter
Copyright 20004



Death is not questioned. Paranormal activity is.

I take it the copyright notification is a typo. Otherwise, you might be suggesting you are a time traveler as well.

Thanks for stopping by. Since you have not addressed any of the concerns in the previous responses, I can only conclude that you stopped by to wax philisophic on the subject of paranormal activity and not offer a shred of evidence for it.

Really, Storm, I'm disappointed. I've done a copious amount of reading on the subject of paranormal activity and your little diatribe here doesn't list one source, one account where the phenomenon was followed up on, or even an openminded quality of questioning your own beliefs on the matter. Might I suggest you read Harry Price's works on the old Borley Rectory and Hans Holtzer's works on the subject. "Haunted Heartland" is also a good book of ghost stories.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:22:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Ghosts:

http://paranormalmoon.com/IMG001.jpg

I was watching a movie in a movie theater and the film started melting. It produced effects which look very similiar if not the same here.

http://paranormalmoon.com/IMG004.jpg

White dots and you claim paranormal? My best guess are light reflections on the lense.

Vampires:

There are humans who like to dress like vampires and like the taste of blood. If you define this as a vampire, then they are real. But they don't turn into bats and they don't go around killing people.

quote:
Nature is the best evidence of this wheel. Nature is our best evidence for life after death. We do not die but lie dormant until one day when we are reborn.


And I can say that nature is our best evidence for dragons the size of dimes which breath fire but unless I back that up as to WHY nature is our best evidence, it doesn't mean anything. You fail to do so.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:49:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
It does not take much to be disappointed and this is where I run into closed minds. This diatribe is based on my own experiences and research with ghosts. Science is a dogma. To say it is not is to fool yourselves. I have read Harry Price, Tony Cornell. Try reading Erich Goode Paranormal Beliefs or Terence Hines Pseudoscience and the Paranormal. I have done a fair amount of "copious" research my self. The evidence I have is my own personal accounts of investigations that I have conducted. and so my statement of Science must release it self from the ball and chain of Spiritulism holds true. the copyright was a typo. No one is perfect.

Storm
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:56:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Dear Ricky,

The first ghost picture could very well be a melting of the film. But it might not be. Don't close your mind. Think of the possibilities. Look at the distinct eyes. Try reading Monsters by John Michael Greer. There are many realms to this universe sometimes that doorway and this doorway cross paths and then comes your eyewitness. The never ending testimonies of the public...
There is more to Science than we know...

Storm
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  14:59:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
On Vampires. Vampires do not go around turning into bats. That is a Hollywood invention. But you talk to the people of Eastern Europe and they will tell you the stories of the Vampyre or blood monster. I know my fathere was from Hungary. The revenant was not the handsome man of todays vampire but he was a sexual being. Read your folklore.

Storm
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  15:10:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Dear Ricky,

The first ghost picture could very well be a melting of the film. But it might not be. Don't close your mind. Think of the possibilities. Look at the distinct eyes. Try reading Monsters by John Michael Greer. There are many realms to this universe sometimes that doorway and this doorway cross paths and then comes your eyewitness. The never ending testimonies of the public...
There is more to Science than we know...



Yes, and gravity can be cause by little green men (Dave W.) and I could have an invisible dragon in my closet (Carl Sagan). You are correct, that very well may be a ghost.

However, what it boils down to is this. Are you going to go around explaining this with theories that we can't test or are you going to explain the same thing with laws which we know to exist?

Are you going to explain gravity by little green men or a warping in the 4th dimension due to mass? Keep in mind that we have no evidence against little green men. Does that mean you call anyone who doesn't accept little green men as creating gravity as close minded?

Could I really have a dragon in my garage? Can you show that I don't? So you don't really know do you? So you would be close minded if you dismissed my dragon. Watch out, it may eat you. And it likes it meat cooked.

Could that picture have been created by a ghost? Is there anyway that I could show that it couldn't? Or are we going to accept a normal effect which has the same results as that picture? I am close minded because I don't accept that the picture was created by ghosts.

I really hope you see the problem with all three of these and the difference between being close minded and searching for alternate explainations.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 11/15/2004 18:40:56
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  15:29:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
On Vampires. Vampires do not go around turning into bats. That is a Hollywood invention. But you talk to the people of Eastern Europe and they will tell you the stories of the Vampyre or blood monster. I know my fathere was from Hungary. The revenant was not the handsome man of todays vampire but he was a sexual being. Read your folklore.

And if you talk to the natives of the deep Amazon forest, they'll speak of women that inhabit the rivers and seduce men into its bottom and drown them, women collectively known as yaras.

Only because we're far more influenced by Europe than by the South American tribes doesn't make either folklore any more real.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  17:58:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Your replies are interesting and somewhat true. Let us not sum all paranormal experiences into whether you have a dragon in your garbage or not. the evidence I have is that of my own experiences. Just because Science does not recognize it as true and real does not mean it does not exist. Have you not had what is termed a paranormal experience? Something you could not explain by scientifical means? We must be able to distinguish between the frauds and cons. But we must not let them cloud reality. Like I said before Science must release itself from the ball and chain of Spiritualism.

Storm
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  18:35:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
Welcome Storm

quote:
Like I said before Science must release itself from the ball and chain of Spiritualism.


You've said this several times, and I guess I'm just a little slow today. What exactly does this mean? What is your definition of spiritualism and how is it science's ball and chain?

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  18:38:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Your replies are interesting and somewhat true. Let us not sum all paranormal experiences into whether you have a dragon in your garbage or not. the evidence I have is that of my own experiences. Just because Science does not recognize it as true and real does not mean it does not exist. Have you not had what is termed a paranormal experience? Something you could not explain by scientific means? We must be able to distinguish between the frauds and cons. But we must not let them cloud reality. Like I said before Science must release itself from the ball and chain of Spiritualism.



With 100% honesty, not that I could remember. But then again, I'm only 18. There have been times that I have gotten the feeling like someone was watching me, heck, even that someone was under my bed. But that doesn't mean it was a ghost or a demon or little green men.

Again, you have not shown us any evidence, your claim can be dismissed, just like any other claim that has no evidence. The claim that green men create gravity has no evidence for or against it, and based on a position of 0 evidence, it is dismissed. The same exact rules apply to your claim.

What I have seen so far is two pictures and a story. The story can be completely fabricated, distorted, misinterpreted, have crucial facts missing.... etc. The pictures I have offered natural explanations as to how the distortions can occur. Whenever possible, use things you already know to explain data.

Because your "evidence" can be explained by natural phenomena, why should we think it that it is some how unnatural? Again, the burden of proof is on you. Extra ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and so far you have failed to show us this.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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