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tkster
Skeptic Friend

USA
193 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  21:33:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tkster a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
tkster, you're a journalism student, and working through a journalistic bias. Eventually, journalists in general are going to have to start teaching people how to interpret the value of Web sites, if for no other reason than to tell their readers why their competition is a crappy source of info.



Yes somewhat, except those who don't make the money through the industry can remain free.

tk
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  21:40:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
"Can remain free?" I'm just confused by this, too.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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tkster
Skeptic Friend

USA
193 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  21:44:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tkster a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

"Can remain free?" I'm just confused by this, too.



Sorry, I meant free of bias. If someone isn't making money off journalism, there should be less bias. This, of course, is more difficult. That is why it is those that teach it that have the greatest responsibility.

tk
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  22:09:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Tk, as a journalist, what is your response to the views of the article posted in this thread.

I'm just curious.

Oh, and as a favor, if you do have any comment on the article, please keep in that thread or Dave will come after me with a (hopefully nerf) baseball bat for encouraging cross-posting. Thanks. :)

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/29/2004 22:10:02
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  22:13:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Ah, that's idealistic, tkster. Everyone has biases, money or no. The trick is to recognize them and try to avoid them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  22:17:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Those who are writing to put food on the table may have more pressure to get the facts striaght, or else they get fired and starve...

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  23:07:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

If your basis of judgement is Internet searches, I present a hypothesis: that Web sites providing good information on evolution are much more likely to provide links to other sources of evolution information, while creationist sites are much more likely to consider themselves "terminal points" on the Web (sites which link to few - if any - other sites; AiG for example).

This would lead to evolutionary sites being heavily cross-linked with each other and outside sources, leading to high rankings by search engines, while creationist sites all seem to consider themselves alone on the Web, thus getting crappy exposure from the likes of Google.

Unfortunately, this tells us nothing about the overall popularity of the two camps.




Plus it doesn't help that Google is pro science as the "light of knowledge" on this tiny little atom in a small corner of the vast Universe!

The world will never align itself with something as 'uncool' as creation! Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2004 :  23:32:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:

Plus it doesn't help that Google is pro science as the "light of knowledge" on this tiny little atom in a small corner of the vast Universe!

The world will never align itself with something as 'uncool' as creation! Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.



Verlch, if you are against science, you should stop using your computer, as science made that thing possible.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  01:35:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
The world will never align itself with something as 'uncool' as creation!
AMEN to that!

quote:
Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.
I wholeheartedly agree! Creation and salvation are fictitious constructs devised by power-hungry religionists to divert mental energy from a higher goal like the survival of the species, to their own personal accumulation of Personal Power and wealth.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  02:50:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
There was an article in the NY times just after the election, here's a quote.

quote:
November 4, 2004


The Day the Enlightenment Went Out
By GARRY WILLS

"Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?"

and...

" Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11."





The problem, as I see it, is well summarized by the second snip there. The majority of people in this country do not understand the basics of critical thinking, nor does it appear that they care to learn.

Critical thinking is obviously discouraged by religious institutions, and people seem content to sit back and let their religious authorities make their decisions for them.

It makes me sick. Especially when it's people in power over the whole country who encourage a mindset that discourages critical examination of the world.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  05:41:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Mmm, y'know, I had never really seen much about creationism before I joined SFN. I'll admit I didn't look into it, am not religious and not exactly the most informed person ever, but all I heard about it before SFN was pretty much vague. I think I heard about it only twice - once on Discovery, in a show about, lo and behold, evolution, where they interviewed this creationist dude and showed some protest by christian populace in front of an university in California or something, and once when a minister was preaching against it, but I started to laugh too hysterically to actually pay attention.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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tkster
Skeptic Friend

USA
193 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  05:53:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tkster a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Plus it doesn't help that Google is pro science as the "light of knowledge" on this tiny little atom in a small corner of the vast Universe!


Knowledge is power.

quote:
The world will never align itself with something as 'uncool' as creation! Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.



False! No one is anti-God, we just don't see any evidence for him. I am not anti-Christian, but I don't see the Christian religion as something that can stand up to critical thinking. I am not forcing you to accept my ideas or philosophy, and I'd appreciate the same back.

tk
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  08:53:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
I am not anti-Christian, but there are some Christians I despise, Jerry Farwell, Pat Robertson, Hovind.. Just to name a few.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 11/30/2004 08:54:18
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  10:03:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by verlch
The world will never align itself with something as 'uncool' as creation!
AMEN to that!

quote:
Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.
I wholeheartedly agree! Creation and salvation are fictitious constructs devised by power-hungry religionists to divert mental energy from a higher goal like the survival of the species, to their own personal accumulation of Personal Power and wealth.






I believe in salvation by faith. The 'Great Ape' is a whole different can of worms!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  10:10:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

There was an article in the NY times just after the election, here's a quote.

quote:
November 4, 2004


The Day the Enlightenment Went Out
By GARRY WILLS

"Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?"

and...

" Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11."





The problem, as I see it, is well summarized by the second snip there. The majority of people in this country do not understand the basics of critical thinking, nor does it appear that they care to learn.

Critical thinking is obviously discouraged by religious institutions, and people seem content to sit back and let their religious authorities make their decisions for them.

It makes me sick. Especially when it's people in power over the whole country who encourage a mindset that discourages critical examination of the world.





The science in humanity has become drunk with pleasure at her knowledge! Discrediting the fact that everything she fiqures out the are a million more things left unexplained! Seems like there is an eternal volume of information in the universe that humanity knows almost nothing of, but yet thinks they can 'explain' it all! I'm not impressed. For science will tell you how a star is born and dies, yet has never seen a star die or being born in a universe of billions of stars! The only ahhing and oooing man gives is not to God. Heaven forbid you would give Him any honor, but to mother nature as a thinking entity. Mother nature is you god, a non living, non breathing entity, and it fits well men that would relate themselves to the 'Great Ape', rather than suffer defeat and submit themselves to the Laws of God!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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