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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  10:20:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

I believe in salvation by faith. The 'Great Ape' is a whole different can of worms!

No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less. It is the luck of the draw that you are not in a zoo somewhere flinging feces at the public. Oh, wait......

Upon what foundation do you base this faith?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Peptide
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  10:25:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Peptide a Private Message
Creationism, as a science, has been dead for over 100 years. The current rash of creationism, dating back to 1950's and Henry Morris, is not really a scientific movement. The real war is a War of Propaganda, a political struggle. Increasingly, christians see an erosion of their religious influence in secular society. They see creationism as a way of introducing religion back into secular society through the secular classroom.

For evolution to win this war, science needs to stress that scientific theories are not an attempt to strip religion of its deity. Most christians today accept evolution and still believe in an all powerful God, but there are still a few stragglers, and very vocal stragglers to boot. Scientists need to step down from there Empirical High Horse and communicate with the public on philosophical issues instead of scientific issues. Christian scientists need to step forward and explain that their religious beliefs are not affected by what they find in a test tube.

Another factor that seems to be pervasive in the creationist movement is martyrdom. In the time that I have debated online with creationists there seems to be an attitude that one must sacrifice rationality, empiricism, and logical thought in order to be a "true" christian. They look at attacks from evolutionists as an attack from the devil, or at least an attack from atheists. Much like a vow of silence, they see their dismissal of science as something that will bring them closer to God.

Creationists then create an impervious shell around their community of martyrdom, which is reflected in "Creationists Only" fora and creationist websites that do not refer to evolutionist weblinks. In this insulated world, they feel they are speaking the truth when they say that more and more scientists believe in a six day creation, that evolution is not supported by any evidence, there are not transitional forms, etc etc etc. In my opinion, they know that creationism can not be defended through science but this isn't really the issue since they have long since dropped science as a criteria for seeking truth in the natural world. It is a political movement, first and foremost, that is couched in scientific language but devoid of scientific support. It is an attempt to evangelise, influence secular society, and remove doubt from the minds of those who see science as being opposed to religion. This war will never be won until science can prove itself as a neutral philosophy to those of religious faith.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  11:21:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
For science will tell you how a star is born and dies, yet has never seen a star die or being born in a universe of billions of stars!


Here you can see stars being born.

Here you can see stars dying.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/30/2004 11:21:38
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26016 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  11:51:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
verlch wrote:
quote:
Creation and salvation are something to be continually mocked and eroded from this country until any mention of God is taken out of America.
But then wrote:
quote:
I believe in salvation by faith.
Great. You're safe from any interference from the government - any government. If you've got faith, according to you, you'll be saved. You shouldn't be scared, then, of any mockery. In fact, Jesus taught that persecution means you're blessed.

I guess I'll just never understand how you, who preach the Bible's truth, cannot follow the Bible's teachings.

You also wrote:
quote:
The science in humanity has become drunk with pleasure at her knowledge! Discrediting the fact that everything she fiqures out the are a million more things left unexplained! Seems like there is an eternal volume of information in the universe that humanity knows almost nothing of, but yet thinks they can 'explain' it all!
Ah, so your complaint is that science doesn't yet have all the answers, and you condemn it for even trying. Well, modern science is very young. And even after 2,000 years, theologians still argue amongst themselves about the nature of Jesus and the meaning of His words. If you apply the same argument to the Bible, verlch, you would have to condemn it, as well.

And then there's the little problem of your finding little things like the "Satanic" layout of Washington, DC, or the sun-worshipping of the Catholics. Why are these "problems?" Because these "facts" only lead to millions more unanswered questions. Such is the nature of any quest for knowledge, verlch. The curious find more questions to ask with each fact that comes to light.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  22:29:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by verlch

I believe in salvation by faith. The 'Great Ape' is a whole different can of worms!

No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less. It is the luck of the draw that you are not in a zoo somewhere flinging feces at the public. Oh, wait......

Upon what foundation do you base this faith?








What faith is it that they believe the Great apes are just apes and therefore just cousins of mankind? The sect of the 'Great Ape only ape cousins of all humankind?'

Being cousins of the 'Ape' is elevating, stimulating and deserves all of humankings upmost respect for the 4 legged beast of the field.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  22:30:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by verlch
For science will tell you how a star is born and dies, yet has never seen a star die or being born in a universe of billions of stars!


Here you can see stars being born.

Here you can see stars dying.





No those sites tell me where a star is born and where the die and just show me a picture of percieved spots, but show me a star on one minute and off the next! Out of trillians of stars! Impossible you say? Out of several trillian stars, should be proviable to such unerrent things such as science!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
Edited by - verlch on 11/30/2004 22:32:41
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  23:54:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
No those sites tell me where a star is born and where the die and just show me a picture of percieved spots, but show me a star on one minute and off the next! Out of trillians of stars! Impossible you say? Out of several trillian stars, should be proviable to such unerrent things such as science!

No. Not impossible, but still rare.

In 1987 scientists watched a supernova form literally before their eyes. SN 1987A, as the event was later termed, was a great explosion which occured approximately 164,000 years ago.

Anyway, what's your point, Verlch? Science isn't inerrant, but it is pretty fascinating. You should open your eyes to what it has to offer rather than dismiss the whole enterprise as folly. Is that science is too difficult for you to understand or that it sometimes uncovers things which make you unconfortable?

Really, I'm trying to understand what could fill a man (who shows genuine intiative when researching topics of personal interest) with such a dehabilitating loathing. You obviously know almost nothing about science and its discoveries, as you demonstrate routinely. How then can not at least feel an ounce of humility? Do you never admit to yourself the possibility that you are mistaken about anything?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/01/2004 03:47:56
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  01:54:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
until any mention of God is taken out of America.


Personally, I have no problem with that.

Why is it that the religious feel the need to spread their garbage, by force sometimes (as history shows)?


And v-man.... come on. You're more incoherent than usual in this thread. Take a deep breath and think about your next post for a few minutes before you type it in. Use some minimal punctuation.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  03:13:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by verlch

I believe in salvation by faith. The 'Great Ape' is a whole different can of worms!

No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less. It is the luck of the draw that you are not in a zoo somewhere flinging feces at the public. Oh, wait......

Upon what foundation do you base this faith?








What faith is it that they believe the Great apes are just apes and therefore just cousins of mankind? The sect of the 'Great Ape only ape cousins of all humankind?'

Being cousins of the 'Ape' is elevating, stimulating and deserves all of humankings upmost respect for the 4 legged beast of the field.

Excuse me, but I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about. Again.

The sect of the great apes? Are you saying that anyone who accepts the ToE is part of some sort of silly cult? Haven't I told you long and many times before that I have no faith. If I should ever feel the need of a faith, it certainly would not be a faith in the drivel you put forth.

I have a respect for all creatures, even the ones that go on my dinner table. Indeed, the only species that I do not respect is a large percentage of my own.

Edited to add: Catch a dose of the Bloody Flux (dysentary) sometime and see how profound a respect you develop for the lowely ameoba.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/01/2004 03:52:44
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  09:54:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Filthy:
No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less.


Just a tiny correction. We are close cousins to the great apes. Especially chimps. All of the great apes and humans share a comment ancestor. Chimps and humans share a relatively recent common ancestor.

Also, it has been argued that we are apes. A fun concept even if not necessarily true, do to a few significant differences in our physiologies. In any case, we are darn close…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  11:27:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Filthy:
No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less.


Just a tiny correction. We are close cousins to the great apes. Especially chimps. All of the great apes and humans share a comment ancestor. Chimps and humans share a relatively recent common ancestor.

Also, it has been argued that we are apes. A fun concept even if not necessarily true, do to a few significant differences in our physiologies. In any case, we are darn close…


T'was in the heat of the moment. Verlch does that to me, now and again.

It is remarkable to me that our kinship with chimps should still be so close after the some 6,000,000 years, give or take, since our collective ancestors went their seperate ways.

It might become more remarkable yet as the studies on the latest finds finally result in classifications.

I'm still watching AiG and ICR for comment on the Spanish find. I haven't looked today, but thus far, nothing. They are still too busy whining about the 'hobbit,' possibly yet another branch of our ever-growing, ever-diverse, family tree.

Y'know, what with all of the hurled feces flying around DC and eslewhere lately, I think that we are indeed apes!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  18:43:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Filthy:
No, great apes are merely apes, just as we are their distant cousins, neither more nor less.


Just a tiny correction. We are close cousins to the great apes. Especially chimps. All of the great apes and humans share a comment ancestor. Chimps and humans share a relatively recent common ancestor.

Also, it has been argued that we are apes. A fun concept even if not necessarily true, do to a few significant differences in our physiologies. In any case, we are darn close#8230;




No Kil, you are a product of evolution. I'm created from the hand of God. God also knew you before you where born.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  18:46:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
6,000,000 years...and no fossils. Just drawings and lots of talk, but no show! In the north pole there should be some good hairy humans stuck in an ice ball!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13470 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  18:57:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Verlch:6,000,000 years...and no fossils. Just drawings and lots of talk, but no show!
No fossils? I know your'e not kidding. That's what makes you so special...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2004 :  19:07:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Verlch:6,000,000 years...and no fossils. Just drawings and lots of talk, but no show!
No fossils? I know your'e not kidding. That's what makes you so special...

Indeed!

Verlch old sock, I can bury you in fossils, a few of which I myself posess. There are expos where you can purchase them with accurate documentation. There are commercial field trips for fossil hunters.

Say, what if I found some fossil trees even older than the Jurassic? Would you be interested? They exist, you know.

quote:


No Kil, you are a product of evolution. I'm created from the hand of God. God also knew you before you where born.

Damn! God must have been drunk again.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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