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Baxter
Skeptic Friend

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  00:48:24  Show Profile Send Baxter a Private Message
I would like to know your opinion on "speaking in tongues."

Do you believe it is supernatural, or do you reason it to be some sort of psychological phenomena?

Or perhaps neither?

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  03:51:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
As I mentioned in another thread, I think speaking in tongues and rolling in the asiles is done impress other babblers and rollers, and the minister, with how devout the woshiper is, how 'touched' by God, as much as anything else. In other words, it is mostly social, as are churches themselves. The worshiper thinks it's expected and gets caught up in the moment. Having put on a good show, (s)he feels much better afterward.

Of course, there are some few that actually do that thing, but in their cases it is either epilepsy or psychosis.

But nothing supernatural about it. Fun to watch though, I'm told.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  03:54:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Baxter

I would like to know your opinion on "speaking in tongues."
Do you believe it is supernatural, or do you reason it to be some sort of psychological phenomena? Or perhaps neither?


It has been studied by psychologists and is termed "Glossolalia".

http://skepdic.com/glossol.html

I recommend a fascinating book with the incredible title: "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes

http://julianjaynessociety.tripod.com

In a later portion of the book, Jaynes attempts to justify glossolalia as one of the contemporary vestiges of bicamerality.

These vestiges include religious trances, spiritualist mediums, automatic writing, glossolalia, related characteristics of schizophrenia and hypnosis. It a very interesting book, and whether you agree or not, beautifully written.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  04:21:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
A friend of mine went on one of those mass hypnosis shows. You know the ones, they have volunteers sitting up on the stage infront on an audience and the hypnotist tries to get them to embarass themselves.

So she tells me she's sitting up there with her eyes closed. She's told to be a washing machine. There's music or something, its loud so she can't hear the audience laughing or whatever, and her eyes are closed so she can't see them or her fellow volunteers. So she thinks, "Eh, why not?" And pretends to be a washing machine.

She showed me what she did, it was pretty funny.

Edit: To be more on topic, that tongue thing is probably similar. Its expected so they go for it.
Edited by - woolytoad on 12/17/2004 04:30:31
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  08:45:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Speaking in tounges is an ancient practice. Many shamans, mediums and the such have used it. While we cannot prove that speaking in tounges is a say godly phenomenon. The fact is that the phenoenon itself does exist. It is a spiritual phenomenon. It is The spirit manifested. Being in a setting as a church, temple, ritual etc brings out a Nirvana to these people and they begin to speak in tounges. Although there are no doubt fakes there are those who really experience the phenomenon. I personally have not had this revelation. But think of how you feel when you hear a great masterpiece like Handels Messiah. You feel the Divine.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  08:56:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Speaking in tounges is an ancient practice. Many shamans, mediums and the such have used it. While we cannot prove that speaking in tounges is a say godly phenomenon. The fact is that the phenoenon itself does exist. It is a spiritual phenomenon. It is The spirit manifested. Being in a setting as a church, temple, ritual etc brings out a Nirvana to these people and they begin to speak in tounges. Although there are no doubt fakes there are those who really experience the phenomenon. I personally have not had this revelation. But think of how you feel when you hear a great masterpiece like Handels Messiah. You feel the Divine.
While I don't doubt the existence of the phenomenon, I would not mind if you present any evidence for the rest of your assertions (emphasized in red by me).
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  09:05:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Having totally failed to do so in all of Storms other assertions, what makes you think your going to get them now?

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  09:10:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Faith?!?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  09:39:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
A couple of years ago, I was invited to attend a service in his church by the Rev. Dewey Chapin. Dewey is a snake-handling preacher.

If I can ever get up to West Virginia again, I'm going to attend.

The thing is, Dewey believes that this is the best way to worship. He is not crazy, but a very intellegent and well educated man. Holding a handful of copperheads or a timber rattlesnake is the proper way to express faith. Thus, I think it is with the holy rollers and the tongue speakers. If the spirit doesn't come upon them, they do it anyway.

At Dewey's service, will I handle venomous snakes? Certainly not! I've had too many bites already and my faith is weak, at best.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  09:41:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Boy you guys love to razz me But that is o.k. Like God I have come to terms with it.Although you consider my posts to be a failure I do not. Especially since you bums continue to answer them Press is Press.
Starman I cannot make you have the revalation.
I am not you. But I cannot imagine that you have not had any Divine revalation. Birth of a child, Marriage, promotion, listening to your favorite music? The name we put on the Divine is just something humankind has come up with. The phenomenon though very real. Let us face it not everyone is hallucinating as so many debunkers would claim. Although I must say this phenomenon is not paranormal, Extraordinary or pseudoscientific. I find it to be real. What we define as extraordinary is only relative to what we define as ordinary
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  10:04:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Starman I cannot make you have the revalation.
I am not you. But I cannot imagine that you have not had any Divine revalation. Birth of a child, Marriage, promotion, listening to your favorite music? The name we put on the Divine is just something humankind has come up with. The phenomenon though very real. Let us face it not everyone is hallucinating as so many debunkers would claim. Although I must say this phenomenon is not paranormal, Extraordinary or pseudoscientific. I find it to be real. What we define as extraordinary is only relative to what we define as ordinary
If with divine you mean good, beautiful, magnificent, pleasant or delightful, sure I've had some nice experiences.

I would just like you to understand that you repeatedly make a lot of claims without providing any support. Such claims are worthless in a skeptic forum.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  10:08:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Mmm.
So everything truly nice and good that happens we instantly shift to the so-called Divine? Damn, I want a job like that. All good stuff, no bad stuff.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  11:01:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Claims not yet just some things to really contemplate . Well siberia what I define as divine is good, happy ,fulfilling. What is yours . Sarman have you not had more than "nice" experiences? You do not believe in the support and numerous journals I have given you. I have led you to many researches, etc. It does not take merely a few days to understand and grasp things but years and it never stops evolving. I have been studying the paranormal for 20 years. While the phenomeno exists which is not deniable the funding and perhaps the methods that science is using is not right. How long did it takes to harnass radio waves, electricity, phones? I believe the energy of ghostly phenomenon comes from energy decomposing during death. You disagree. The fact that neither is provanble so neither is right or wrong. We all are searching for truths you and I my Skeptic friends that interest us.
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  12:47:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
What's up fellas? Hey my thoughts on babbeling in tounges is that it is fraud. Religous fraud. People desire to see some visual example of God manifesting Himself in the physical for them to really believe.

When Jesus and His disciples where preaching 2000 years ago, the crowds that gathered to hear them speak did not all know Hebrew. So there was a miriacle everbody there heard them preach in his own language! That is what speaking in tounges was meant to do. Going md bdu gibber gibber mmum mum cloooc ribbeeeer isn't bringing any glory to God! In fact I think it is doing a disservice to true christians!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  12:55:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Deleted. Wrong thread.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/17/2004 13:59:58
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  14:41:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

What's up fellas? Hey my thoughts on babbeling in tounges is that it is fraud. Religous fraud. People desire to see some visual example of God manifesting Himself in the physical for them to really believe.


Agreed.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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