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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2004 : 12:42:53 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN mgbworks.
quote:
What about discretion with lights. One or two strings of energy efficient lights instead of the competitive blazes of all types of lighting to out-do ones neighbor.
I found something you can do about it. Click on over and turn this guy's xmas lights off (between 1800 and 2200 Mountain Time). |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2004 : 12:49:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I guess my only question is how far should we go to be environmentally safe? Should we no longer live in houses but outside on the ground? Should we not be allowed to own a fire place? Should we not be allowed to drive?
Exactly how far is too far?
In my opinion, what you have described is just a bit too far. Also, about the trees being cut down, a large percentage of those are grown on tree farms, not just randomly cut down from the forest.
Sorry, mine's made of steel and plastic. Neener, neener, boo boo. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2004 : 13:10:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
I find it amazing that each year believers start stringing scads of lights earlier and earlier. No thoughts of global warming here. The herd then starts migrating toward corporate run stores to buy the latest whatever, secure in the belief that the things they buy have some use, oblivious to how much pollution and waste was made in their productions. Trees, so necessary to keeping down carbon dioxide levels, are killed to provide ornamentation. Then, the phony, pervasive, "Christmas Spirit," fills their hearts, as the cloying carols are played over and over. Then all the boxes, wrapping paper, trees and other garbage are left for our already overfull landfills. Wouldn't you think that those with children just might be interested in helping to provide an environmentally sound planet for their progeny to live in. Yet those with children are usually the worst transgressors; a fine heritage they leave: global warming, ozone depletion, pollution of groundwater, depletion of the oceans, toxic chemicals leaching from landfills and the waste of fossil fuels. Ah, Christmas, what a concept for the feeble-minded.
Do humans mismanage the Earth's resources? Yes.
Is Christmas any different from any other holiday? No.
We aren't talking about what we should have. We are talking about what we do have.
Your last rant has nothing what-so-ever to do with Christmas and everything to do with the current challenges of everyday life in an industrialized nation.
Global warming: Yup. This is a problem. How much of the human produced gasses (CO2 included in a long litany of gasses. Focusing on one ignores the bigger problem) have an effect on the environment is under debate. Lets take the current major producer of CO2 and greenhouse gasses in Washington state. Take a letter to Mt. St. Helens. Make that volcano listen!
Ozone depeletion: Still learning about this one. Might be a cyclical natural change.
Pollution of groundwater: Yup. It happens. The US is trying to crack down on it, but companies run by crimals don't always follow the rules and it does take a while for people to catch it. Heck, the US government has inadvertently caused some of it. (Red Gate Woods had a section dug up and encapsulated after the stuff dumped there started polluting the groundwater. What was it? Elements of the UOC reactor from Project Manhattan.)
Depeltion of the oceans: This is a function of fisheries practice and human population. Some practices are widely banned such as trawling.
Toxic chemicals leeching from landfills: Yup. Toxic chemicals are sometimes disposed of improperly. The worst of these are illegal dump sites rather than commercial landfills. Given the tons of garbage to be processed, there isn't the manpower to audit the particulars within garbage. Shit happens, educate people and deal with it.
Fossil fuels: Yup. Still working on an alternative, though. It's the tools we have, you can't expect immediate change for this. It will take a while.
None of these is related to Christmas. If you had stuck to how humans were screwing up the ecosphere in general, you'd have a point. Instead you focused on Christmas and it's attendant commercialism which is unrelated to the problem. Commercialism in general is the major motivator for these evils.
Don't pick out one tree in the forest, look at the whole. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2004 : 13:55:54 [Permalink]
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Well I for one save energy to save money, not the planet. I want the planet to change dramatically, it is perhaps the only way we will ever be rid of religion. Not holding my breath.
Oh and I own a total of 0 christmas related items in my home. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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mgbworks
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2004 : 21:45:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
I find it amazing that each year believers start stringing scads of lights earlier and earlier. No thoughts of global warming here. The herd then starts migrating toward corporate run stores to buy the latest whatever, secure in the belief that the things they buy have some use, oblivious to how much pollution and waste was made in their productions. Trees, so necessary to keeping down carbon dioxide levels, are killed to provide ornamentation. Then, the phony, pervasive, "Christmas Spirit," fills their hearts, as the cloying carols are played over and over. Then all the boxes, wrapping paper, trees and other garbage are left for our already overfull landfills. Wouldn't you think that those with children just might be interested in helping to provide an environmentally sound planet for their progeny to live in. Yet those with children are usually the worst transgressors; a fine heritage they leave: global warming, ozone depletion, pollution of groundwater, depletion of the oceans, toxic chemicals leaching from landfills and the waste of fossil fuels. Ah, Christmas, what a concept for the feeble-minded.
Do humans mismanage the Earth's resources? Yes.
Is Christmas any different from any other holiday? No.
We aren't talking about what we should have. We are talking about what we do have.
Your last rant has nothing what-so-ever to do with Christmas and everything to do with the current challenges of everyday life in an industrialized nation.
Global warming: Yup. This is a problem. How much of the human produced gasses (CO2 included in a long litany of gasses. Focusing on one ignores the bigger problem) have an effect on the environment is under debate. Lets take the current major producer of CO2 and greenhouse gasses in Washington state. Take a letter to Mt. St. Helens. Make that volcano listen!
Ozone depeletion: Still learning about this one. Might be a cyclical natural change.
Pollution of groundwater: Yup. It happens. The US is trying to crack down on it, but companies run by crimals don't always follow the rules and it does take a while for people to catch it. Heck, the US government has inadvertently caused some of it. (Red Gate Woods had a section dug up and encapsulated after the stuff dumped there started polluting the groundwater. What was it? Elements of the UOC reactor from Project Manhattan.)
Depeltion of the oceans: This is a function of fisheries practice and human population. Some practices are widely banned such as trawling.
Toxic chemicals leeching from landfills: Yup. Toxic chemicals are sometimes disposed of improperly. The worst of these are illegal dump sites rather than commercial landfills. Given the tons of garbage to be processed, there isn't the manpower to audit the particulars within garbage. Shit happens, educate people and deal with it.
Fossil fuels: Yup. Still working on an alternative, though. It's the tools we have, you can't expect immediate change for this. It will take a while.
None of these is related to Christmas. If you had stuck to how humans were screwing up the ecosphere in general, you'd have a point. Instead you focused on Christmas and it's attendant commercialism which is unrelated to the problem. Commercialism in general is the major motivator for these evils.
Don't pick out one tree in the forest, look at the whole.
Hi Valiant Dancer: Thanks for the comments. Is Christmas different than any other holiday? YesI guess we could nitpick details but I think you may have missed my point. All of these threats to the environment exist without any help from commerical Xmas. But, and it's a biggy: this is corporate merchandisings' big time of the year, from the trees to the new plastic blow-up and light-up Santas and Snowmen. Every year Xmas brings on new ways to blow out the local power plants and empty the wallets of the gullible. I think your remark about Mt. St. Helens was a bit gratuitous. If you think all commercial landfills are safe then you just haven't been paying attention. And please, let's call problems problems, and not the euphimistic "challenge". Problem is a good word, a very definitive and precise word. Challenge and all its friends: issue, conundrum, something we need to look into, ad nauseum don't satisfy. And you don't solve a problem by changing the language. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 08:51:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
I find it amazing that each year believers start stringing scads of lights earlier and earlier. No thoughts of global warming here. The herd then starts migrating toward corporate run stores to buy the latest whatever, secure in the belief that the things they buy have some use, oblivious to how much pollution and waste was made in their productions. Trees, so necessary to keeping down carbon dioxide levels, are killed to provide ornamentation. Then, the phony, pervasive, "Christmas Spirit," fills their hearts, as the cloying carols are played over and over. Then all the boxes, wrapping paper, trees and other garbage are left for our already overfull landfills. Wouldn't you think that those with children just might be interested in helping to provide an environmentally sound planet for their progeny to live in. Yet those with children are usually the worst transgressors; a fine heritage they leave: global warming, ozone depletion, pollution of groundwater, depletion of the oceans, toxic chemicals leaching from landfills and the waste of fossil fuels. Ah, Christmas, what a concept for the feeble-minded.
Do humans mismanage the Earth's resources? Yes.
Is Christmas any different from any other holiday? No.
We aren't talking about what we should have. We are talking about what we do have.
Your last rant has nothing what-so-ever to do with Christmas and everything to do with the current challenges of everyday life in an industrialized nation.
Global warming: Yup. This is a problem. How much of the human produced gasses (CO2 included in a long litany of gasses. Focusing on one ignores the bigger problem) have an effect on the environment is under debate. Lets take the current major producer of CO2 and greenhouse gasses in Washington state. Take a letter to Mt. St. Helens. Make that volcano listen!
Ozone depeletion: Still learning about this one. Might be a cyclical natural change.
Pollution of groundwater: Yup. It happens. The US is trying to crack down on it, but companies run by crimals don't always follow the rules and it does take a while for people to catch it. Heck, the US government has inadvertently caused some of it. (Red Gate Woods had a section dug up and encapsulated after the stuff dumped there started polluting the groundwater. What was it? Elements of the UOC reactor from Project Manhattan.)
Depeltion of the oceans: This is a function of fisheries practice and human population. Some practices are widely banned such as trawling.
Toxic chemicals leeching from landfills: Yup. Toxic chemicals are sometimes disposed of improperly. The worst of these are illegal dump sites rather than commercial landfills. Given the tons of garbage to be processed, there isn't the manpower to audit the particulars within garbage. Shit happens, educate people and deal with it.
Fossil fuels: Yup. Still working on an alternative, though. It's the tools we have, you can't expect immediate change for this. It will take a while.
None of these is related to Christmas. If you had stuck to how humans were screwing up the ecosphere in general, you'd have a point. Instead you focused on Christmas and it's attendant commercialism which is unrelated to the problem. Commercialism in general is the major motivator for these evils.
Don't pick out one tree in the forest, look at the whole.
Hi Valiant Dancer: Thanks for the comments. Is Christmas different than any other holiday? YesI guess we could nitpick details but I think you may have missed my point. All of these threats to the environment exist without any help from commerical Xmas. But, and it's a biggy: this is corporate merchandisings' big time of the year, from the trees to the new plastic blow-up and light-up Santas and Snowmen. Every year Xmas brings on new ways to blow out the local power plants and empty the wallets of the gullible. I think your remark about Mt. St. Helens was a bit gratuitous. If you think all commercial landfills are safe then you just haven't been paying attention. And please, let's call problems problems, and not the euphimistic "challenge". Problem is a good word, a very definitive and precise word. Challenge and all its friends: issue, conundrum, something we need to look into, ad nauseum don't satisfy. And you don't solve a problem by changing the language.
I never said that all commercial landfills were safe. I said they were not the major source of the problem.
And no, Christmas is not any different than other holidays.
Halloween has attendant light and animitronic shows to compete with the neighbors. It has people wasting pumpkins in record numbers.
Independance Day has similar shows of pyrotechics which is just as damaging.
You are also ignoring the large role that natural forces have on the ecology of the planet. The Mt. St. Helens reference shows you how profound the effect of natural forces have on the environment.
To combat a problem, one must first analyze it and determine the true causes. To effect change, one must assert the diplomacy necessary to influence leaders to act. These are challenges. In addition, if you want one type of fuel for industrial and private conveyances to end, you have to have a workable replacement. Pontification about the problem does nothing to solve the problem.
In this poor economy, the firebrands of commercialism have not wavered. I have noticed a marked increase in advertizing assaulting the airwaves because people just aren't buying. Christmas, Valentines day, and the invented Sweetest day are times the commercial interests push the hardest. Christmas is no longer the far and away push of commercialism.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 12/21/2004 08:58:11 |
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mgbworks
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 10:41:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
I find it amazing that each year believers start stringing scads of lights earlier and earlier. No thoughts of global warming here. The herd then starts migrating toward corporate run stores to buy the latest whatever, secure in the belief that the things they buy have some use, oblivious to how much pollution and waste was made in their productions. Trees, so necessary to keeping down carbon dioxide levels, are killed to provide ornamentation. Then, the phony, pervasive, "Christmas Spirit," fills their hearts, as the cloying carols are played over and over. Then all the boxes, wrapping paper, trees and other garbage are left for our already overfull landfills. Wouldn't you think that those with children just might be interested in helping to provide an environmentally sound planet for their progeny to live in. Yet those with children are usually the worst transgressors; a fine heritage they leave: global warming, ozone depletion, pollution of groundwater, depletion of the oceans, toxic chemicals leaching from landfills and the waste of fossil fuels. Ah, Christmas, what a concept for the feeble-minded.
Do humans mismanage the Earth's resources? Yes.
Is Christmas any different from any other holiday? No.
We aren't talking about what we should have. We are talking about what we do have.
Your last rant has nothing what-so-ever to do with Christmas and everything to do with the current challenges of everyday life in an industrialized nation.
Global warming: Yup. This is a problem. How much of the human produced gasses (CO2 included in a long litany of gasses. Focusing on one ignores the bigger problem) have an effect on the environment is under debate. Lets take the current major producer of CO2 and greenhouse gasses in Washington state. Take a letter to Mt. St. Helens. Make that volcano listen!
Ozone depeletion: Still learning about this one. Might be a cyclical natural change.
Pollution of groundwater: Yup. It happens. The US is trying to crack down on it, but companies run by crimals don't always follow the rules and it does take a while for people to catch it. Heck, the US government has inadvertently caused some of it. (Red Gate Woods had a section dug up and encapsulated after the stuff dumped there started polluting the groundwater. What was it? Elements of the UOC reactor from Project Manhattan.)
Depeltion of the oceans: This is a function of fisheries practice and human population. Some practices are widely banned such as trawling.
Toxic chemicals leeching from landfills: Yup. Toxic chemicals are sometimes disposed of improperly. The worst of these are illegal dump sites rather than commercial landfills. Given the tons of garbage to be processed, there isn't the manpower to audit the particulars within garbage. Shit happens, educate people and deal with it.
Fossil fuels: Yup. Still working on an alternative, though. It's the tools we have, you can't expect immediate change for this. It will take a while.
None of these is related to Christmas. If you had stuck to how humans were screwing up the ecosphere in general, you'd have a point. Instead you focused on Christmas and it's attendant commercialism which is unrelated to the problem. Commercialism in general is the major motivator for these evils.
Don't pick out one tree in the forest, look at the whole.
Hi Valiant Dancer: Thanks for the comments. Is Christmas different than any other holiday? YesI guess we could nitpick details but I think you may have missed my point. All of these threats to the environment exist without any help from commerical Xmas. But, and it's a biggy: this is corporate merchandisings' big time of the year, from the trees to the new plastic blow-up and light-up Santas and Snowmen. Every year Xmas brings on new ways to blow out the local power plants and empty the wallets of the gullible. I think your remark about Mt. St. Helens was a bit gratuitous. If you think all commercial landfills are safe then you just haven't been paying attention. And please, let's call problems problems, and not the euphimistic "challenge". Problem is a good word, a very definitive and precise word. Challenge and all its friends: issue, conundrum, something we need to look into, ad nauseum don't satisfy. And you don't solve a problem by changing the language.
I never said that all commercial landfills were safe. I said they were not the major source of the problem.
And no, Christmas is not any different than other holidays.
Halloween has attendant light and animitronic shows to compete with the neighbors. It has people wasting pumpkins in record numbers.
Independance Day has similar shows of pyrotechics which is just as damaging.
You are also ignoring the large role that natural forces have on the ecology of the planet. The Mt. St. Helens reference shows you how profound the effect of natural forces have on the environment.
To combat a problem, one must first analyze it and determine the true causes. To effect change, one must assert the diplomacy necessary to influence leaders to act. These are challenges. In addition, if you want one type of fuel for industrial and private conveyances to end, you have to have a workable replacement. Pontification about the problem does nothing to solve the problem.
In this poor economy, the firebrands of commercialism have not wavered. I have noticed a marked increase in advertizing assaulting the airwaves because people just aren't buying. Christmas, Valentines day, and the invented Sweetest day are times the commercial interests push the hardest. Christmas is no longer the far and away push of commercialism.
Interesting ideas: that you can know what I think, what I know, how I feel and what I have done. Pontificater heal thyself. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2004 : 11:05:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by mgbworks
Hi Valiant Dancer: Thanks for the comments. Is Christmas different than any other holiday? YesI guess we could nitpick details but I think you may have missed my point. All of these threats to the environment exist without any help from commerical Xmas. But, and it's a biggy: this is corporate merchandisings' big time of the year, from the trees to the new plastic blow-up and light-up Santas and Snowmen. Every year Xmas brings on new ways to blow out the local power plants and empty the wallets of the gullible. I think your remark about Mt. St. Helens was a bit gratuitous. If you think all commercial landfills are safe then you just haven't been paying attention. And please, let's call problems problems, and not the euphimistic "challenge". Problem is a good word, a very definitive and precise word. Challenge and all its friends: issue, conundrum, something we need to look into, ad nauseum don't satisfy. And you don't solve a problem by changing the language.
I never said that all commercial landfills were safe. I said they were not the major source of the problem.
And no, Christmas is not any different than other holidays.
Halloween has attendant light and animitronic shows to compete with the neighbors. It has people wasting pumpkins in record numbers.
Independance Day has similar shows of pyrotechics which is just as damaging.
You are also ignoring the large role that natural forces have on the ecology of the planet. The Mt. St. Helens reference shows you how profound the effect of natural forces have on the environment.
To combat a problem, one must first analyze it and determine the true causes. To effect change, one must assert the diplomacy necessary to influence leaders to act. These are challenges. In addition, if you want one type of fuel for industrial and private conveyances to end, you have to have a workable replacement. Pontification about the problem does nothing to solve the problem.
In this poor economy, the firebrands of commercialism have not wavered. I have noticed a marked increase in advertizing assaulting the airwaves because people just aren't buying. Christmas, Valentines day, and the invented Sweetest day are times the commercial interests push the hardest. Christmas is no longer the far and away push of commercialism.
Interesting ideas: that you can know what I think, what I know, how I feel and what I have done. Pontificater heal thyself.
Nice dodge. Never touched on any of the salient points. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 12/22/2004 08:36:20 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 01:25:02 [Permalink]
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Do you guys like to quote, or what?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 08:35:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Do you guys like to quote, or what?
I was beginning to consider clipping some of the previous quotes. The message was getting quite long. I guess I was just in a hurry when quoting. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 09:44:18 [Permalink]
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| Ok, here's the thing. Many retailers and corporations rely on Christmas to make their annual sales goals. In some cases, Christmas keeps them solvent. Remove this bump in buying and you get increased unemployment. Perhaps what should be pushed is more environmentally friendly products. I dunno. While I am an environmentalist, I worry about jobs too. It's a bit of a conundrum, don't you think? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 10:58:15 [Permalink]
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I believe Christmas is that one time of year when we can, just for awhile, put aside our weighty concerns and focus on what truly matters--food and presents.
Saving the planet is what New Year's resolutions are for.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/22/2004 11:12:18 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 12:06:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I believe Christmas is that one time of year when we can, just for awhile, put aside our weighty concerns and focus on what truly matters--food and presents.
Saving the planet is what New Year's resolutions are for.
Double H, I couldn't have said it any better, and few are more rabid eco-freaks than I.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 13:00:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I believe Christmas is that one time of year when we can, just for awhile, put aside our weighty concerns and focus on what truly matters--food and presents.
Saving the planet is what New Year's resolutions are for.
Amen!  |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 13:09:37 [Permalink]
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I came across an article by Dr. Leonard Peikoff today. (If you're familiar with Ayn Rand or Objectivism you've most likely heard of him.) It's called "Why Christmas Should be More Commercial". Here's a portion:
quote:
America's tragedy is that its intellectual leaders have typically tried to replace happiness with guilt by insisting that the spiritual meaning of Christmas is religion and self-sacrifice for Tiny Tim or his equivalent. But the spiritual must start with recognizing reality. Life requires reason, selfishness, capitalism; that is what Christmas should celebrate--and really, underneath all the pretense, that is what it does celebrate. It is time to take the Christ out of Christmas, and turn the holiday into a guiltlessly egoistic, pro-reason, this-worldly, commercial celebration.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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