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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  02:21:51  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
D'you remember reading about a cloned cat a couple of weeks ago, the first ever? Well, this marvelous moggie cost a woman in Texas, where else, fifty thousand dollars!
quote:
The first cloned-to-order pet sold in the United States is named Little Nicky, an eight-week-old kitten delivered to a Texas woman saddened by the loss of a cat she had owned for 17 years.

The kitten cost its owner $50,000 and was cloned from a beloved cat, named Nicky, that died last year. Nicky's owner banked the cat's DNA, which was used to create the clone.

"He is identical. His personality is the same," the woman told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

The company, Sausalito-based Genetic Savings and Clone, made her available to speak to reporters only on condition that her name or hometown not be used. The woman said she fears being the target of groups opposed to cloning.

This gal doesn't need to be afraid of anti-clone groups, no. Her problem would more likely be with people in white smocks telling her to calm down or comes it the electroshock again.

quote:
By May, the company said it hopes to have produced the world's first cloned dog -- a much more lucrative market than cats. While it is based in the San Francisco Bay area, the company's cloning work will be done at its new lab in Madison, Wis.

The whole thing seems just a little ghoulish to me.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  02:46:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Cats? She doesn't know that you can get hundreds of them for free?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  07:04:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Cats? She doesn't know that you can get hundreds of them for free?

Oh, yeah - she knows. She's got some very vocal people pissed off for that very reason. $50,000 would go a long way in an animal shelter.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  08:10:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
This feels weird and ghoulish to me.

I thought a lot about this subject, because I love my furbabies dearly. But I guess I must believe in the existence of a soul or spirit of some kind, because I consider them (and people) to be unique in the universe...not replicable. Not replacable.

If we're not connecting with the unique essence (or spirit, or soul, or individuality) of a person or animal when we love, what exactly are we loving?
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  08:24:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
Wasn't cloning vehemently opposed by consertive christians? Which have a particular strong basis in Texas (amongst others)? Funny then that this cloning has been carried out for a Texan customer. Or am I the only one to see the joke in it?

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  08:55:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
<shrugs> It's her money. I guess she can spend it upon any sort of foolishness she pleases. I do hope she gets her meds and her priorities reevaluated soon.

On a more serious note, the company mentioned is planning to clone dogs and apparently has one in the works even as we speak. They say there's more money in it, and they are probably right. Further, it looks like they plan to do this almost on a production line basis, and that brings up some interesting questions: When this get's beyond Fluffy and Fido and into the predigreed animals, how is the Kennel Club and Purebred Pussy (or what the hellever cats have) going to react? Will these animals be qualified for registration with them? And if so, under what name? Will they still be elegible for outrageous stud fees? Will their progeny be worth the high dollars currently demanded by breeders?

And it get's better (or worser, your choice): what if several clones are made from a champion animal and these are bred, resulting in numerous litters? And who says the doner cells have to have come from road kill or the equivelent? The door is now open to cell theft from a living animal.

Oh Pandora, I do love you so, but must you open your box quite so often?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/24/2004 09:11:04
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  10:31:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
I always thought that part of the charm of a pet (or a person, for that matter) was that it was unique and had its own quirks and personality. When your dog/cat/hamster/spouse kicks the bucket and you get another one, you get something different, but actually just as special for its individuality.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  12:31:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck

I always thought that part of the charm of a pet (or a person, for that matter) was that it was unique and had its own quirks and personality.


Au contraire! This woman claims the clone has the same personality as her dead cat. Um, not to say the kitten is dead. It's supposedly the same as the dead cat when it was alive. I guess.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  15:51:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
If she really believes that the kitten has the same personality as the cat that provided the DNA, that's gotta be the wolrd record for confirmation bias- or a case of out-and-out delusion.

I've lived with several cats from kittenhood to the ends of their lives, and my experience is that their personalities- or characteristic behavior patterns- change as they grow and age.

Two of the furballs who currently own me have been with me since birth- they were born in my bedroom- and there's just no way that the behavior patterns they exhibit now that they're three years old are much like, or could have been extrapolated from the way they were when they were two months old.

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  17:18:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
There is also the thought that if the lady is off center enough to shell out that many sheckles to start with, she's likely to be just batty enough see almost anything she wants in the cat. I rather doubt that the personality is the same as the former Nicky at that age, nor will it be when it gets older. It has, perhaps a few habits shared with the donor cat, and probably not uncommon in other cats.

What she has done, for all pratical purposes, is simply purchased a new cat that looks exactly like her old one.

Oh well. If she's happy with it, I'm happy for her.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  17:20:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
Am I the only one who thinks that this might be a good thing? If we can clone house hold pets reliably, maybe we are a little closer to resurecting spiecies we drove to extinction or preserving endangered ones.

IIRC, when they were cloning sheep, there was a problem with the cloned cells. Also Dolly died early though no connection was ever established.

Have they fixed this, found out there's no link or is this kitten going to die young?

A brief history of Dolly
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/dolly/index.asp

<i>On a more serious note, the company mentioned is planning to clone dogs and apparently has one in the works even as we speak. They say there's more money in it, and they are probably right. Further, it looks like they plan to do this almost on a production line basis, and that brings up some interesting questions: When this get's beyond Fluffy and Fido and into the predigreed animals, how is the Kennel Club and Purebred Pussy (or what the hellever cats have) going to react? Will these animals be qualified for registration with them? And if so, under what name? Will they still be elegible for outrageous stud fees? Will their progeny be worth the high dollars currently demanded by breeders?

And it get's better (or worser, your choice): what if several clones are made from a champion animal and these are bred, resulting in numerous litters? And who says the doner cells have to have come from road kill or the equivelent? The door is now open to cell theft from a living animal.
</i>

These are all non-issues.

The Kennel Club will simply draw up guide lines and there will probably still be a market for "original" animals. Indeed, a real purebred may now be more desireable over the cloned animal. Think, factory made over hand made. In fact, I cannot think of any real reason I would value a cloned animal over the real thing. "Limited edition Siamese Cat: Original belongs to Oprah" :-?

Even if this does cause havok in the purebred animal market, so what? This is not the first time new technology has over turned existing industries. The most recent example I can think of: digital cameras.

The cloners also seem to be genuine business people. What makes you think I can walk up with a petridish of cells and ask them to clone it? Even if I could, just because you can buy a cloned animal doesn't mean its a trivial process. There's little chance of black market clones just popping up.

And lastly - I want to have breakfast - just because they <i>plan</i> to produce these animals on a production line basis, doesn't mean they'll be succesful. This lady paid USD$50,000. I bet you can get a purebreed for far less. The vast majority of cats and dogs are going to have been concieved naturally for many many years yet.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  18:23:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Good points Wooly.

I've never been much assoicated with dogs ans cats, apart from being afflicted with a cat, but I have with horses. Believe me, fraud and deciet in that breeding industry is common. I rather doubt that it is much different with the pet industry. If there's a way to beat the rules, someone will do it. I forsee a lot more DNA testing in the future.

Of course the longterm health of the animal is very much in question, and it's all but impossible to give any gaurentees (I followed the Dolly saga closely). Indeed, if they had done, I'd be calling the company a fraud.

I have nothing in paticular against cloning animals, although I find pet cloning bordering on silly. It seems to me that if they want to research cloning endangered and extinct species, they should working on those species. But this is a commercial outfit using science, not a strictly scientific one. There's more profit in Fluffy and Fido than in passenger pidgeons, whooping cranes, and condors.

My questions are still valid because, as this little cat demonstrates, mass production, of sorts, is not all that far off. If this company becomes a success, and I don't see why not, others will soon follow.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2004 :  18:43:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I am somewhat surprised that neither the article, nor anyone here, mentioned Schwarzenegger's The 6th Day, a film in which there was a company called "RePet" which cloned dead family pets.

In other news, Genetic Savings and Clone even has an online discussion forum.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2004 :  02:26:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Thinking about it, I dunno about cloning extinct species. It might look good in print, but if the animal(s) could not survive in their time, it is highly improbable that they could survive today. About all you might end up with are a few very expensive and concievably quite difficult to keep, zoo exhibits.

Or perhaps exotic 'pets' that would lead short, miserable lives.

I think scientific efforts would be put to better use with existing, endangered species, but even there, the species' natural conditions would need to improve for it's long-term survrval.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2004 :  07:41:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad

Am I the only one who thinks that this might be a good thing? If we can clone house hold pets reliably, maybe we are a little closer to resurecting spiecies we drove to extinction or preserving endangered ones.


Jurassic Park, YAY!
[/temporary madness]

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2004 :  23:37:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I am somewhat surprised that neither the article, nor anyone here, mentioned Schwarzenegger's The 6th Day, a film in which there was a company called "RePet" which cloned dead family pets.

It's only because you beat me to it.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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