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Wolfsong
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2006 :  02:42:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Wolfsong's Homepage Send Wolfsong a Private Message
How can the health care industry be burdened by such a vague and arbitrary condition?
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, a mental condition that is primarily symptomatic of an individual unable/incapable to deal with a past event(s), is already in the DSM.

And out of the darkness, the Zombie did call
True pain and suffering he brought to them all
Away ran the children to hide in their beds,
for fear that the devil would chop off their heads
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2006 :  07:27:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfsong

How can the health care industry be burdened by such a vague and arbitrary condition?
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, a mental condition that is primarily symptomatic of an individual unable/incapable to deal with a past event(s), is already in the DSM.

That is a very good point.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2006 :  21:48:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
False Memory Syndrome would be a meaningful diagnosis that accurately explains lost and recovered memories of those who claim UFO abduction, satanic ritual Abuse, childhood sexual abuse and other traumatic events.


What a poorly worded survey question.

"False Memory Syndrome would be..." Do you mean is, or could be, or should be? Those words all work--would doesn't. It seems to need a condition: like... False Memory Syndrome would be _________, if ______. So 4 words in, you've butchered any validity the question would have had if it had been written correctly.

"... a meaningful diagnosis..." Meaningful to whom? You? Me? My uncle Guido? Could you be any more vague?



"...that accurately explains lost and recovered memories of those who claim UFO abduction, satanic ritual Abuse, childhood sexual abuse and other traumatic events."

Did you really mean to include only people that had all those claims (including the broad "other traumatic events") and exclude those who only had claims in one through all but one of those categories? So if the person claims to have been sexually abused by an alien after being abducted--but it was not part of a satanic ritual--then the False Memory Syndrome does not apply?

At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2006 :  22:09:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

There is no language filter on this site, Ergo so you can stop purposely misspelling curse words like a fucking idiot.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2006 :  22:25:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

Thanks for the critique. I do believe, however, that most, if not all of the people who answered my question understood what I was asking. Still, this is in no way meant to be a scientific poll. And sure, it may have suffered from my talking style of writing which is probably not the best choice when designing the wording for a poll.

The idea was to stimulate some discussion on the subject of False Memory Syndrome, especially among skeptics who seem to have embraced it as a valid syndrome and a legitimate diagnosis.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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McQ
Skeptic Friend

USA
258 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  08:38:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send McQ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
ergo123:
At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

Thanks for the critique. I do believe, however, that most, if not all of the people who answered my question understood what I was asking. Still, this is in no way meant to be a scientific poll. And sure, it may have suffered from my talking style of writing which is probably not the best choice when designing the wording for a poll.

The idea was to stimulate some discussion on the subject of False Memory Syndrome, especially among skeptics who seem to have embraced it as a valid syndrome and a legitimate diagnosis.




I liked the poll and the thought behind why it was posted. I did, however, have a hard time trying to figure out what was meant. Several careful re-readings got me to where I was pretty sure I understood it, but yes it could have been a tad clearer. Still, it's a good topic, worth discussing. I know someone who claims widespread ritualistic (Satanic) abuse in her family. Pretty wild stuff. It's caused massive problems, both legal and emotional in her family for 15 years. Sad.

Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  08:58:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
McQ:
I liked the poll and the thought behind why it was posted. I did, however, have a hard time trying to figure out what was meant. Several careful re-readings got me to where I was pretty sure I understood it, but yes it could have been a tad clearer.

I would rewrite the question but the poll has been up for a long time and should be taken down soon.

Next time I do one of these I will be more careful about the wording.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  16:53:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
ergo123:
At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

Thanks for the critique. I do believe, however, that most, if not all of the people who answered my question understood what I was asking. Still, this is in no way meant to be a scientific poll. And sure, it may have suffered from my talking style of writing which is probably not the best choice when designing the wording for a poll.

The idea was to stimulate some discussion on the subject of False Memory Syndrome, especially among skeptics who seem to have embraced it as a valid syndrome and a legitimate diagnosis.




And how can any of you know whether some unknown person who claims some unknown memory is real or false? What is the point of talking about things you will never know about people you will never know?

I can tell you right now: False Memory Syndrome is a valid diagnosis for some people; and False Memory Syndrome is an invalid diagnosis for some people.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  17:07:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:

And how can any of you know whether some unknown person who claims some unknown memory is real or false? What is the point of talking about things you will never know about people you will never know?


Quite a valid point. Since we can't know everything about FMS, might as well put aside any discussion about it.

quote:
I can tell you right now: False Memory Syndrome is a valid diagnosis for some people; and False Memory Syndrome is an invalid diagnosis for some people.


That may or may not be the case.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 11/11/2006 17:08:21
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  17:31:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
And how can any of you know whether some unknown person who claims some unknown memory is real or false? What is the point of talking about things you will never know about people you will never know?

I am in no position to determine whether any individual is presenting real or false memories. But that is not what we (Michelle and I) are questioning. We are questioning the validity of a definable syndrome (False Memory Syndrome) directly associated with those who report memories that we know are false. Likewise we question the position of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, some psychologists and skeptics that all recovered memories are necessarily false, or at least, were never really repressed, (call it what you will.)
quote:
ergo123:
I can tell you right now: False Memory Syndrome is a valid diagnosis for some people; and False Memory Syndrome is an invalid diagnosis for some people.

I don't think there is a syndrome with a definable symptom cluster that can be called False Memory Syndrome. Since the symptoms are so widely varied, or in some cases, the only symptom is the false memory, I don't think FMS is ever a valid diagnosis. Plus, it does not appear as a syndrome in the DSM. And yes, I agree that some people do sometimes recover memories that were at one time repressed.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  08:54:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
So then what is the point here--for you to spout off about what you believe? Then why bother with the poll?

One interesting thing here, however, is how so many people responded to the poorly worded question--even when they were unsure of the actual meaning of the question. This is a culture-dependent phenomenon.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  09:47:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
So then what is the point here--for you to spout off about what you believe? Then why bother with the poll?

We found problems with the position of the FMSF and some skeptics on the subject of FMS and repressed memories that, to my knowledge, had not been challenged by anyone from “the skeptical community”.

As for the poll, we wanted to see where our members fell on the controversy called “The Memory Wars” and FMS in particular. And as I stated earlier, we wanted to stimulate discussion about the controversy.

quote:
ergo123:
One interesting thing here, however, is how so many people responded to the poorly worded question--even when they were unsure of the actual meaning of the question. This is a culture-dependent phenomenon.

We have a pretty bright membership. And though this is only my opinion, it is my guess that most who answered the poll understood what I was asking. Still, I understand that the results have no validity at all due to poor wording, which I take full responsibility for.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  10:30:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

quote:
False Memory Syndrome would be a meaningful diagnosis that accurately explains lost and recovered memories of those who claim UFO abduction, satanic ritual Abuse, childhood sexual abuse and other traumatic events.


What a poorly worded survey question.

"False Memory Syndrome would be..." Do you mean is, or could be, or should be? Those words all work--would doesn't. It seems to need a condition: like... False Memory Syndrome would be _________, if ______. So 4 words in, you've butchered any validity the question would have had if it had been written correctly.

"... a meaningful diagnosis..." Meaningful to whom? You? Me? My uncle Guido? Could you be any more vague?



"...that accurately explains lost and recovered memories of those who claim UFO abduction, satanic ritual Abuse, childhood sexual abuse and other traumatic events."

Did you really mean to include only people that had all those claims (including the broad "other traumatic events") and exclude those who only had claims in one through all but one of those categories? So if the person claims to have been sexually abused by an alien after being abducted--but it was not part of a satanic ritual--then the False Memory Syndrome does not apply?

At least the question is so fcuekd up that the results are totally invalid.

You are now carrying your ad hominem attacks over to threads that are totally unrelated to your conspiracy notions, attacking your "enemies" wherever you find them.

If you were actually interested in the subject of False Memory Syndrome, it wouldn't be entirely amiss (although obviously too late to help) if you pointed out (in a civil manner) how the survey might have been worded more clearly.

But you, Ego, have instead clearly grabbed an opportunity to launch a mean-spirited slap at someone who has been very effective in pointing out how little evidence you have presented in a matter unrelated to False Memory Syndrome.

IMHO, that was completely out of line. I call "asshole" on you.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  13:01:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
ergo123:
So then what is the point here--for you to spout off about what you believe? Then why bother with the poll?

We found problems with the position of the FMSF and some skeptics on the subject of FMS and repressed memories that, to my knowledge, had not been challenged by anyone from “the skeptical community”.

As for the poll, we wanted to see where our members fell on the controversy called “The Memory Wars” and FMS in particular. And as I stated earlier, we wanted to stimulate discussion about the controversy.

quote:
ergo123:
One interesting thing here, however, is how so many people responded to the poorly worded question--even when they were unsure of the actual meaning of the question. This is a culture-dependent phenomenon.

We have a pretty bright membership. And though this is only my opinion, it is my guess that most who answered the poll understood what I was asking. Still, I understand that the results have no validity at all due to poor wording, which I take full responsibility for.




I find it telling how you cling to your belief--in the face of no supporting evidence--that people here understood what you meant by your poll question. Essentially, your belief needs to be based on a set of additional beliefs--that people here do not read the words you actually type and/or misinterpret words the same way you do.

And atop all this, while believing respondents understood your meaning, you still concede the invalidity of the poll one the grounds of the poor wording.

If you truly believe people understood your meaning, why consider the results invalid due to your wording?

And if you truly believe "that the results have no validity at all due to poor wording..." then how can you believe people understood your meaning?

Holding both positions seems to defy logic.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  13:39:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
You are now carrying your ad hominem attacks over to threads that are totally unrelated to your conspiracy notions, attacking your "enemies" wherever you find them.


Moonie--I think you don't really know what "ad hominem" means, because you consistently misuse the term. I am making no personal attacks of kil here. I'm pointing out the poor wording of his poll question and challenging his holding conflicting beliefs. Neither attacks his character as a human being. Neither tries to stir the emotions of readers at the expense of a rationale for my critique or my suggested corrections of his errors.



quote:
If you were actually interested in the subject of False Memory Syndrome, it wouldn't be entirely amiss (although obviously too late to help) if you pointed out (in a civil manner) how the survey might have been worded more clearly.


But I am interested, moonie--or I wouldn't have bothered commenting on the poor wording of the question.

And there seems to be a wide range of what is considered "civil manner" here--kil, for example, responded to a sincere question I posed to him with "bite me." So maybe the solution for you would be to grow a thicker skin.



quote:
But you, Ego, have instead clearly grabbed an opportunity to launch a mean-spirited slap at someone who has been very effective in pointing out how little evidence you have presented in a matter unrelated to False Memory Syndrome.


And what evidence do you have of the spirit in which my suggestions were offered?

quote:
IMHO, that was completely out of line.


Your opinion is duely noted and henceforth ignored, moonie.


quote:
I call "asshole" on you.


I'm not even sure what that means. No doubt part of what you consider "civil manner"...

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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