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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  14:08:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
If you truly believe people understood your meaning, why consider the results invalid due to your wording?

And if you truly believe "that the results have no validity at all due to poor wording..." then how can you believe people understood your meaning?

Holding both positions seems to defy logic.

Not at all. As I said, I cannot defend this poll as being scientific. Therefore in real terms it has no validity. For example, I would not use the poll as evidence for anything. I would not ask you to look at the poll as support for any assertion I might make.

But I can have an opinion about it. And it is admittedly an un-evidenced opinion. So I would make no attempt to defend my opinion based on the poll. Based on the feedback that I received it is my opinion that most people understood what I was asking. But then, I could be wrong about that…

In any case, I don't use the poll in any real way other than to hopefully pique people's interest in the subject. I have not once referred back to it in any discussion. And unless you keep asking me about it, I never will…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  17:22:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
ergo123:
If you truly believe people understood your meaning, why consider the results invalid due to your wording?

And if you truly believe "that the results have no validity at all due to poor wording..." then how can you believe people understood your meaning?

Holding both positions seems to defy logic.

Not at all. As I said, I cannot defend this poll as being scientific. Therefore in real terms it has no validity. For example, I would not use the poll as evidence for anything. I would not ask you to look at the poll as support for any assertion I might make.

But I can have an opinion about it.


Yes, you can. In fact, you have commented here on at least 2 opinions about it. And these 2 opinions contradict each other.

One opinion you hold on your poorly worded poll question (Q), is that due to its poor wording, its results are invalid (). Symbolically: Q = . And I think we all agree to the truth value of this statement.

The other opinion you hold about the same poorly worded question (Q) is that people understood it (Q) as you had understood it in your head (K)--(you just had trouble typing words to reflect this meaning). Symbolically, you are saying Q = K.

But if the wording was not an issue for those responding to it--i.e., the poor wording did not interfere with respondents' understanding of what you meant and their subsequent response to the poorly-worded question (i.e., Q = K)--then its validity should not be jeopardized by it poor wording. Symbolically, Q >

But we have already established that Q = . So we must revisit the premise of Q = K.

If Q = , the only way for Q = K is if K = --i.e., the premise that people understood it (Q) as you had understood it in your head is invalid ().



quote:
quote:
And it is admittedly an un-evidenced opinion. So I would make no attempt to defend my opinion based on the poll. Based on the feedback that I received it is my opinion that most people understood what I was asking. But then, I could be wrong about that…



As illustrated above, you are, indeed, wrong about that...

quote:
quote:
In any case, I don't use the poll in any real way other than to hopefully pique people's interest in the subject.



Given K = , the issue becomes "in what subject is interest being piqued?"

quote:
quote:
I have not once referred back to it in any discussion. And unless you keep asking me about it, I never will…




No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  18:07:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message


Sigh…


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  18:20:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
With a total of eight units in Ego's last post, it should come as no surprise that the contents add up to just a lot more .


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  18:26:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil



Sigh…

Yeah, well, if you look at the posts in this thread, starting at the beginning, it is clear that those who posted understood the question. Also, I ran the poll by a few people before I posted it and they understood the question. In fact, based on feedback, I could legitimately form a hypothesis and test it by rewording the poll.

I'm not going to do that though so it doesn't really matter…




My post was about your stated, conflicting opinions of the poll. How's about you address that?

If you believe respondents understood your meaning, why would you consider the poll invalid because of the wording? It's a simple question, kil. Why are you trying to dodge answering it?

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  18:32:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
ergo123:
If you believe respondents understood your meaning, why would you consider the poll invalid because of the wording? It's a simple question, kil. Why are you trying to dodge answering it?

There is no dodge. I have already addressed that.

Also, it is clear that you are only on this thread to give me a hard time. I know that by your last two posts. You want to be a troll here? Do you really want to do that?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  20:54:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

My post was about your stated, conflicting opinions of the poll.
Your crap-covered logic assumes "scientifically valid" to be equal to "respondents understood the meaning of the words." You're going to have to demonstrate that such an equation is a true premise before we can agree that your conclusion - that Kil has expressed two conflicting opinions - is sound. Valid logic only leads to sound conclusions if all the premises are known to be true.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  23:03:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

My post was about your stated, conflicting opinions of the poll.
Your crap-covered logic assumes "scientifically valid" to be equal to "respondents understood the meaning of the words." You're going to have to demonstrate that such an equation is a true premise before we can agree that your conclusion - that Kil has expressed two conflicting opinions - is sound. Valid logic only leads to sound conclusions if all the premises are known to be true.





Validity, in the context of a survey, refers to the ability of the instrument (e.g., a question or questionnaire) to measure what the investigator intended to measure. (See http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/tutorial/Rymarchk/rymar2.htm for a tutorial.)

For our purposes here, we need only look at content validity. In assessing the content validity of this poll (or any survey item) a first question to ask is Are there multiple ways of reasonably interpreting the question? If the answer is "Yes" the item has no content validity--as the results obtained from asking that question can potentially include responses of a mix of interpretations. Unfortunately, the researcher cannot know how many respondents interpreted the question the way it was intended and how many did not.

For this poll, the question was: "False Memory Syndrome would be a meaningful diagnosis that accurately explains lost and recovered memories of those who claim UFO abduction, satanic ritual Abuse, childhood sexual abuse and other traumatic events."

As a survey research professional, this question screams for help. Aside from the "talking way of writing" style it is written in it has a classic flaw--using the word and where it wasn't meant. I feel confident in my guess that kil did not intend to measure attitudes about FMS when applied only to individuals claiming memories in all the areas listed. It is likely he meant "one or more" of the areas listed. But given kil's "I stand behind what I say" attitude here, interpreting and as and is a reasonable interpretation.

This fatal flaw in the validity of the question is further worsened by the word "would" after FMS. In this context, it is reasonable to interpret the question as being incomplete as no conditional statement follows the conditional indicator (i.e., would). This could cause a systematic bias in results among those who didn't recognize the "talking way of writing" kil apparently uses.

So, davey, it has been demonstrated that the question is not a valid measure of opinions on FMS.

Besides the above, the real issues here are kil's opinions regarding the question.

So, no, kil--I'm not trolling. I am trying to figure out why a person as intelligent as you seem to be would hold conflicting opinions about this question. To hold the opinion that the results of the question "have no validity at all due to poor wording" is to admit that you think people did not interpret the question the way you intended. Yet you also contend that "it is my guess that most who answered the poll understood what I was asking."

That's like saying you are an atheist who believes in god.

Such a statement seems to be one where a clarification of belief is appropriate--and mandatory on a site like this!

And so far, you have not addressed your conflicting opinions other than to restate them. Yes, I'm sure it's giving you a hard time--but it is your conflicting opinions that are giving you the hard time. I'm just the messanger.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  09:31:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
My opinion is this. The poll numbers are fairly accurate because I am working under the assumption that most people understood what I was asking. And I do have evidence to support that conclusion.

However, the problems you have pointed out are real in terms of defending my opinion about the results. So it's just my opinion.

I would have to reword the poll in order to remove any doubt about the results. I could not use this highly informal poll to support the numbers because the poll is flawed. But even a flawed poll can render accurate results if it could be shown that the people taking the poll understood what I was asking. And there is the rub. I can't prove that. So I am left with my opinion, which is not particularly scientific.

Therefore, I would not use this poll as evidence because it would not pass scientific scrutiny for the reasons you have stated.

In other words, I don't have two opinions about the polls numbers. I just can't really use the results because the wording if flawed. I base my conclusion about its accuracy on an assumption that is not scientific.

Next time I will be more careful…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  10:02:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

My opinion is this. The poll numbers are fairly accurate because I am working under the assumption that most people understood what I was asking. And I do have evidence to support that conclusion.



So, you believe your assumptions impact the accuracy of your data!? I must have missed the days they covered that in my stats sequence. And do you really have evidence to support that conclusion or do you mean you have evidence to support your assumption (your conclusion is that your assumption impacts the accuracy of your data; your assumption is that people knew what you meant)? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here--since your conclusion is absurd--and firgure you meant you have evidence for your assumption... And, indeed, you do--but you also have evidence that people did not understand what you meant. So you seem to be selectively attending to the evidence you want to believe.

quote:
However, the problems you have pointed out are real in terms of defending my opinion about the results. So it's just my opinion.


Right. That's why I keep asking you why you hold conflicting opinions.

quote:
I would have to reword the poll in order to remove any doubt about the results.


Right!

quote:
I could not use this highly informal poll to support the numbers because the poll is flawed.


Right!

quote:
But even a flawed poll can render accurate results if it could be shown that the people taking the poll understood what I was asking.


Wrong. If you could show that the people taking the poll understood what you were asking, it wouldn't be a flawed poll (at least from a content valitity standpoint).

Additionally, as I pointed out above, you cannot (ever) show (or even reasonably argue) that the people taking the poll understood what you were asking given its fatal flaws (without doing additional research).


quote:
And there is the rub. I can't prove that. So I am left with my opinion, which is not particularly scientific.


Yet, you are still expressing 2 opinions here--that contradict each other: You say, in your last post "The poll numbers are fairly accurate," and "I could not use this highly informal poll to support the numbers because the poll is flawed."

If you believe the poll is flawed, the only non-contradictory opinion you can have about the accuracy of the poll is "I don't know."

And please note--I'm not saying you can't hold contradictory opinions about the poll. There is no law requiring us to be internally consistent. I'm just asking you why you hold contradictory opinions about the poll.



No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  18:48:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
Do you think your silence actually fools anyone here, kil?

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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McQ
Skeptic Friend

USA
258 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  19:20:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send McQ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

Do you think your silence actually fools anyone here, kil?



TRANSLATION:

"I hate it when kil, Dave, or insert any name doesn't spend all of their time in here thinking about me, ME, ME and answering my pre-adolescent arguments!"


I love to see how much this kind of thing gets under his skin. It's just about the best part of the forum right now.




Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  19:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by McQ

quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

Do you think your silence actually fools anyone here, kil?



TRANSLATION:

"I hate it when kil, Dave, or insert any name doesn't spend all of their time in here thinking about me, ME, ME and answering my pre-adolescent arguments!"


I love to see how much this kind of thing gets under his skin. It's just about the best part of the forum right now.







Under my skin?!

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  20:19:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Under my skin?!

Yeah, what were you thinking, McQ? Trolls only get a kick out of irritating people, they don't actually care enough about the crap they spout to get annoyed themselves.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  20:41:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Under my skin?!

Yeah, what were you thinking, McQ? Trolls only get a kick out of irritating people, they don't actually care enough about the crap they spout to get annoyed themselves.





The Angry Boy is right. I don't know how it relates to what I said, but he is right about Trolls.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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