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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:37:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

I prefer to skip to the heart of an argument. The evolution aspect isn't really important to his main contention (and least thus far) and so seemed to me better to dispell quickly, rather than belabor.

And pointing out his errors is being helpful, just in a different way. I don't have the time or patience to step anybody through anything. But if you would like to, be my guest.



I would like it if he at least went away from this to his next potential convert and said, "This picture disproves our knowledge about Cro-magnon man." Since as far as I can fathom there's no connection between his main contention (the connection between the two pictures) and either evolution or Neanderthals.

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:47:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
I can only define it by what it means for me.

You are dreaming right now. Time does not exist. There was no yesterday and tomorrow will never arrive. There is only Now.
What you percieve with your eyes is only what you wish to believe, it has no sense in reality. The moment you realise this is the moment you realise you know nothing of who you were. This is a re:evolution. Your mind is blank and upon it you can now understand everything in the context of the dreamer and not the dream, you will then evolve back to the knowledge of who you are, an awakening if you like. So evolution is really backwards but in a forwards sort of way.
Imagination is important here because now it becomes limitless and your return to Knowledge. That Knowledge is creation, of which no man can remember but his free will gives him the choice to decide when he wishes to remember. Then it's given him in place of what he made. So there is no true evolution just an imagination constrained by the limits of what you believe you are.

Anyway, so you don't think much of the horse and the gulf stream my skeptical friends ?

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:47:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
So your argument is that because of a series of dots that coincitentally resembles somewhat the gulf stream evolution is "disproved"

A bunch of dots can be made to fit whatever you want. I call it a bunch of dots. A 'cool shape' if you will. I think it's a leap to call it the Gulf Stream. A leap that could get you a gold medal in the Olympics.
quote:
Anyway, so you don't think much of the horse and the gulf stream my skeptical friends ?

Nope.

And why the hell would the Gulf Stream by next to a fricken horse anyway? It makes no sense. You make no sense.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:54:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
Geni, I'm not dismissing the lunar calender theory just trying to make sense of it. There are 29 dots, maybe there is a connection there. But the shape in relation to the moon I cannot explain. I could understand if they wanted to count the new moon cycle as this is not visible but not the full moon.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:00:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
I also believe that there is a lost civilization and this is just one piece of evidence to show it.



quote:
Delusional: A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence


There is no sense responding to you, as you are clearly delusional.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:01:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

Anyway, so you don't think much of the horse and the gulf stream my skeptical friends ?



If you're going to ask that question, then I would have to say I see little if any similarities between the two pictures (except color). At the most, I could say they are homeomorphic (i.e. "Two objects are homeomorphic if they can be deformed into each other by a continuous, invertible mapping").

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:04:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
Thanks. Just wanted to know.
It seems no one does apart from me.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:05:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

Geni, I'm not dismissing the lunar calender theory just trying to make sense of it.



Before you try to make sense of it, perhaps you should take a couple of paleontology or archaeology courses, because I don't think you have the tools to understand this--especially when you're trying to relate this to Neanderthals, who have nothing to do with those paintings.

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:07:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
A beautifully stylized painting of a horse, isn't it? It is one of the most popular of the collection of cave paintings, and some years ago, I had a poster of it.

But alas, it has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution. It matters not in tne least if that artist had mapped the Gulf Stream from forecastle to fantail and deck scuppers to keelson, it makes no difference. That is art and cartography, not biology nor geology.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:21:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
I'll spell it out for you. When was the gulf stream first discovered ?
How did neaderthals know about the gulf stream ?


How does this disprove evolution?

quote:
I also believe that there is a lost civilization and this is just one piece of evidence to show it.



Who lost it? Where? What evidence do you have?

quote:
My definition of evolution is that we haven't evolved naturally.


Please explain this, with supporting evidence.

quote:
Our imagination is only confined to the limits of our knowledge not time.


Some imaginations seem to run unconfined by knowledge.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  19:40:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

I can only define it by what it means for me.

You are dreaming right now. Time does not exist. There was no yesterday and tomorrow will never arrive. There is only Now.
What you percieve with your eyes is only what you wish to believe, it has no sense in reality...
Ah, going back to first principles, if the existence of everything is reasonably questionable, then we have no common ground from which to agree on anything. Starting from such a position shoots any argument you may have had right in the foot. Because for all I know, the image of that painting is wrong, and the person who originally did it painted a seagull. Have you ever been to Lascaux? If yes, are you sure you didn't dream it?
quote:
Imagination is important here because now it becomes limitless and your return to Knowledge.
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
quote:
So there is no true evolution just an imagination constrained by the limits of what you believe you are.
And if you're comfortable with that definition, you will fail biology class.
quote:
Anyway, so you don't think much of the horse and the gulf stream my skeptical friends ?
There's not much to think. As has already been shown, the Gulf Stream flows much, much closer to the East coast of North America than either the painting or your map depict (and Haiti is on the wrong side). Alaska would be a huge cancerous growth straight up out of the horse's back (just behind its neck), but it's absent. Why is there no hint of South America? Why paint North America as a horse? Why paint the Gulf Stream in dots, and not a flowing blue line? Why don't the same artists seem to have painted maps of Europe (much better known to them)?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  21:34:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
I'm with Dude on this one..... clearly delusional! No point in going further here.

Isaiah, I'm still a bit confused on why you "altered" my quote? Are you a skeptic or no?

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  22:53:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
I'm with Dude on this one..... clearly delusional! No point in going further here.



I am actually not with Dude on this one. Just stating that someone is delusional in no way encourages skeptical thought. It makes you appear higher than others, which is something we want to move away from.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2005 :  00:00:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
I am actually not with Dude on this one. Just stating that someone is delusional in no way encourages skeptical thought. It makes you appear higher than others, which is something we want to move away from.


Pick your battles.... is what I say.

A person who drops a picture of a 15k year old cave painting next to a photoshop'd map with an innacurate depiction of the gulfstream... and then claims that it is disproof of evolution and evidence for a "lost civilization"....


There is, I think, almost no possibility of meaningfull communication between serendipitypublishing and skeptics. (going to abreviate the name to sp for future reference)

Perhaps calling him(using masculine gender as a default, apologies if I'm incorrect) delusional could be mistaken for a superioir attitude, but only perhaps.

I know that I advocate responding with the audience in mind, and that the brunt of our effort should be aimed at people who are closer to our way of thinking already. But anyone who agrees with sp, or can't see the bologna here, doesn't fall into that category anyway.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2005 :  01:12:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
This sounds a bit like all the rubbish being touted about the Piri Reis Map.

So the horse kind of resembles North America? I would say it mostly resembles a horse.
So which explanation is most likely?

The dots are nothing like the gulf stream, which doesn't make a bulge toward Newfoundland.
This is where the cold labrador current enters the Atlantic.

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