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jimrobb
New Member

38 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2005 :  15:50:10  Show Profile  Visit jimrobb's Homepage Send jimrobb a Private Message
As a newbie, I'm curious. Does this forum include any supporters of theistic evolution? Or those who might at least consider the possibility of same? So far I'm seeing a lot of all-the-way views. Anyone interested in a God who can play scientist? (Call me curious--gotta ask to know!)

Jim Robb

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2005 :  16:18:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Very few of us would say that Theistic Evolution is not possible, we would say however that no evidence exists of "guided" or "god started" evolution as of yet, and evidence is everything to most of us.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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tkster
Skeptic Friend

USA
193 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2005 :  17:38:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tkster a Private Message
To quote Dawkins "If God used evolution, He sure went through a lot of work to make it look like [biodiversity] came without Him." That was on some radio program where he was interviewed about his latest book "Ancestor's Tale."

tk

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2005 :  20:52:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb

As a newbie, I'm curious. Does this forum include any supporters of theistic evolution? Or those who might at least consider the possibility of same? So far I'm seeing a lot of all-the-way views. Anyone interested in a God who can play scientist? (Call me curious--gotta ask to know!)

Yeah, I gotta agree with Papa. I grew up Roman Catholic, so theistic evolution was basically what was taught. Or not even that god guided evolution, but "primed" the intial conditions in such a way that humans were the irrevocable result. I don't believe that, but there is certainly philosophical wriggle-room to allow that viewpoint.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/06/2005 20:52:44
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  02:20:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Theistic evolution is just another unprovable, and unsupported, proposition.

It is, to borrow a phrase, the god-of-the-gaps showing up again.

Personally I find it, and ideas like it, to be self defeating. QUestions that we do not know the answer to should not be filled in with a "god-did-it!" answer.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  03:12:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
OEC? I don't buy it, but it's certainly a cut above YEC, and what isn't? Many in the fields of science are believers, but almost all believe in something like OEC. "In the beginning, God set it all up, then let it take it's course." so to speak.

I think it has much to do with orgins; the beginnings. Nobody knows how life began on earth although YEC would have it that God, for whatever perverse reason, got it all up and running in six days. To the YECs dismay and often fury, the facts state otherwise.

Abiogenesis, the hypothesis that life formed naturally some three-plus billion years ago is still being worked on.

Here's a few sites to help out.

TalkOrigins: the best on the 'net when it comes to The Theory of Evoultion.

God's Greatest Mistakes: A discussion with many examples of how evolution does not always have the best solution; external and vulnerable, mammal testes for example.

The Panda's Thumb: An on-going discussion of the ToE.

There are many more, but that should get you started. Of particular interest is TalkOrigins. The site is exrensive and they discuss all views. I cannot over-reccommend it.

Welcome to SFN, jimrobb!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/07/2005 03:16:22
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  10:01:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
All things considered, I do not get my knickers in a bind if someone tells me they believe in theistic evolution. If there is a need to reconcile science with faith in these people, they could do much worse. The bottom line is they do accept evolutionary theory as the cornerstone of biology. That they believe it was guided, a position that is un-supported, is ok with me. That particular reconciliation seems to be more personal and is not a threat to science or what is being taught in science classrooms. I should point out that the Leakey's held this particular view and it did not keep them from being fine paleo-anthropologists.

There are many scientists who identify as Christians or Jews or what have you. They accept the evidence and the theory. They do research and teach. They do not bring their beliefs into the science of it at a practical level. And that is fine with me.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  10:30:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
Sorry, but the first thing I noticed is what you get when you switch the J and the R in jimrobb's name.....my bad.

On the theistic evolution point I'm with Dude but certainly Kil makes a very good point. Misguided they may be, but harmless for the most part.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
Edited by - astropin on 02/07/2005 10:31:12
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  10:55:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb

As a newbie, I'm curious. Does this forum include any supporters of theistic evolution? Or those who might at least consider the possibility of same? So far I'm seeing a lot of all-the-way views. Anyone interested in a God who can play scientist? (Call me curious--gotta ask to know!)



(sheepishly raises hand)

I figure God made the rules by which the universe and biodiversity came into being. It's a matter of philosophy which science cannot comment upon as it is only interested in describing the rules instead of answering the philisophical question of who made the rules.

It's a harmless mental exercise.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  14:45:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
In my view, the science tends to favor the Bible as myth. While not wanting to awaken Dave on whatever that was we differed on in this area, the Bible has so many things wrong when it comes to descriptions of the natural world, at some point you have to say, the Bible is basically a collection of myths. And, there are no other religious texts in my experience that do any better.

So theistic evolution would be an oxymoron.
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  15:02:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Astropin, it is nice to know I am not the only deviant on this board. I can't help but 'tee hee' every time I see the name.



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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jimrobb
New Member

38 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  16:12:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit jimrobb's Homepage Send jimrobb a Private Message
I appreciate everyone speaking up with your various viewpoints. I'm chasing down some of your references. Trying to learn.

Jim Robb
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  17:32:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

While not wanting to awaken Dave on whatever that was we differed on in this area...
So long as you stick to religious texts (as you did above), we're in good agreement. The problems came up when generalizing from what we know to what we don't. I think. Maybe.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2005 :  21:58:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
I figure God made the rules by which the universe and biodiversity came into being. It's a matter of philosophy which science cannot comment upon as it is only interested in describing the rules instead of answering the philisophical question of who made the rules.



As long as you recognize that this position is just unevidenced speculation.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2005 :  01:19:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

While not wanting to awaken Dave on whatever that was we differed on in this area...
So long as you stick to religious texts (as you did above), we're in good agreement. The problems came up when generalizing from what we know to what we don't. I think. Maybe.

I think we always were in agreement when we were on the same subject.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  07:58:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
I figure God made the rules by which the universe and biodiversity came into being. It's a matter of philosophy which science cannot comment upon as it is only interested in describing the rules instead of answering the philisophical question of who made the rules.



As long as you recognize that this position is just unevidenced speculation.





Yup. I do. It would be inappropriate for it to be taught in schools, too.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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