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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2005 : 03:21:03
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This New Yorker article is rather frightening:
THE COMING WARS
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
What the Pentagon can now do in secret
Mr. Hersh was on the Daily Show and had an interview on Democracy Now. He calls the Bush administration a cult of a few inner circle fanatics, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rice and Bush who think if they bomb a few sites in Iran, the people will rise up against the mullahs. The Bushies haven't figured out anything from Iraq except maybe not to send troops.
It's unbelievable. How could they be that stupid!
Hersh said the New Yorker has an excellent reputation for fact checking and he stands by his information. Stewart asked him where he gets the information. Hersh replied he has contacts who are just as worried as anyone that are closely involved. The Bush administration just shuts out any dissenting opinion so the dissenters seek out the reporters. That certainly seems plausible. Maybe even Colin Powell is the unnamed source.
Hersh said we can expect 4 more years of war to be certain. This sucks.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 03:43:05 [Permalink]
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Even I can see that if those idiots bomb a few sites in Iran, the populace will rally around the mullahs more than ever before. Where does Bush and his fellow ignoramous' get the bonehead idea that an Iranian is any less patriotic than anyone else?
Impeach now!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 05:45:39 [Permalink]
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One of the scariest things that I have heard during his administration was GW's response to the question about whether he had sought the advice of his father Bush Sr, prior to invading Iraq. His response was that he sought council with a higher father through prayer. If GW believes that he is right what chance is there that he will disagree with himself.
GW is clearly the most dangerous man on this planet.
edited to add "prior to invading Iraq" |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 01/27/2005 05:47:00 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 07:52:32 [Permalink]
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An interview with Seymore Hersh. Scroll down just a tad. quote:
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, author of the book, Chain Of Command: The Road From 9-11 to Abu Ghraib. He spoke recently at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
SEYMOUR HERSH: About what's going on in terms of the President is that as virtuous as I feel, you know, at The New Yorker, writing an alternative history more or less of what's been going on in the last three years, George Bush feels just as virtuous in what he is doing. He is absolutely committed -- I don't know whether he thinks he's doing God's will or what his father didn't do, or whether it's some mandate from -- you know, I just don't know, but George Bush thinks this is the right thing. He is going to continue doing what he has been doing in Iraq. He's going to expand it, I think, if he can. I think that the number of body bags that come back will make no difference to him. The body bags are rolling in. It makes no difference to him, because he will see it as a price he has to pay to put America where he thinks it should be. So, he's inured in a very strange way to people like me, to the politicians, most of them who are too cowardly anyway to do much. So, the day-to-day anxiety that all of us have, and believe me, though he got 58 million votes, many of people who voted for him weren't voting for continued warfare, but I think that's what we're going to have.
I have said it before, many times, and I'll say it yet again: we have a flaming sociopath in the White House.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 01/27/2005 07:54:27 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 08:51:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush. At least our Supreme Court would prevent things like this.
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=5
Granted, but GW is getting the whole world pissed at us and scared of us. After Iraq and Iran, who is he going to hit next? He is starting to act like a schoolyard bully that no one will stand up to. Soon the rest of the kids will gang up on him and then where will we be?
What sort of mess will we have to deal with after this term (assuming he lasts this term)? I think we will have two or three more wars on our hands, most of the world pissed at us, our allies turning their backs on us, and a lot more terrorists trying to hurt us. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 09:58:07 [Permalink]
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Rubicon said:
quote:
In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush.
The key word is choose. If we invade and occupy a country there is no choice.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 10:58:55 [Permalink]
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So then what should the US do when Iran explodes its first nuke? I thought IAEA were supposed to prevent proliferation. Better yet what would the UN do? Resolutions?? I am sorry to say the UN's resolutions make me feel as secure as a Christian Scientist with appendicitis.
WHO'S NEXT by Tom Lehrer
First we got the bomb, and that was good
'Cause we love peace and motherhood
Then Russia got the bomb, but that's okay
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way
Who's next
France got the bomb, but don't you grieve
'Cause they're on our side, I believe
China got the bomb, but have no fears
They can't wipe us out for at least five years
Who's next
Then Indonesia claimed that they
Were gonna get one any day
South Africa wants two, that's right
One for the black and one for the white
Who's next
Egypt's gonna get one too
Just to use on you know who
So Israel's getting tense
Wants one in self defense
"The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm
But just in case, we better get a bomb
Who's next
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 11:05:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush. At least our Supreme Court would prevent things like this.
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=5
Ya think?
If Bush gets to load the SC with fundie lunatics like Scalia, the scrapping of the Constitution might not be too far behind. The OT is fully as vicious as the laws in Iran and elsewhere. After all, it was first concieved in that area by pretty much the same people.
Couldn't happen? Don't betcher ass. I didn't think that the Fuckwit in Chief would still be in office, but by hook & by crook, there he is.
The day might be coming when I could be jailed for no more than writing this post.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 11:30:20 [Permalink]
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No it won't happen. The fear-mongering of scrapping the Constitution and theocratic judges is just the same as fear-mongering of terrorist attacks. It is banal.
The Constitution can be editted only by Congress or Govenor's and only if there is a 3/4 majority. That is not going to happen. The SC cannot make laws but only interpert whether the law is Constitutional. If they can create laws, then Bush is right. We've got activist judges that need to be reigned in.
80 years ago, you probably would have been arrested and deported for what you wrote. Read up on the Palmer raids (Midnight arrests, Deportations, Newspapers being destroyed) We've had that and survived.
And if IF we go they way you envision, THEN WE DESERVE IT. The final arbiter in all of this is the citzenry. If we decide to abrogate our duties to the state and constitution, we deserve tyranny. If we cease to be involved in our own security, WE DESERVE TRYANNY.
Wasn't it Jefferson who said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance??
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 12:05:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
No it won't happen. The fear-mongering of scrapping the Constitution and theocratic judges is just the same as fear-mongering of terrorist attacks. It is banal.
The Constitution can be editted only by Congress or Govenor's and only if there is a 3/4 majority. That is not going to happen. The SC cannot make laws but only interpert whether the law is Constitutional. If they can create laws, then Bush is right. We've got activist judges that need to be reigned in.
80 years ago, you probably would have been arrested and deported for what you wrote. Read up on the Palmer raids (Midnight arrests, Deportations, Newspapers being destroyed) We've had that and survived.
And if IF we go they way you envision, THEN WE DESERVE IT. The final arbiter in all of this is the citzenry. If we decide to abrogate our duties to the state and constitution, we deserve tyranny. If we cease to be involved in our own security, WE DESERVE TRYANNY.
Wasn't it Jefferson who said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance??
I will agree that I am a tad paranoid (but am I paranoid enough?), but I remind again: Bush is in office against all odds, and the Patriot Act is still in force. Never rule out the human equasion! The fundies love this sort of thing and have the ability to convince a lot of people to follow them.
The '06 elections will be critical, I think.
And the price of freedom is indeed eternal vigilance, but I fear we have fallen asleep.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 12:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And the price of freedom is indeed eternal vigilance, but I fear we have fallen asleep.
I couldn't agree with you more. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 13:00:31 [Permalink]
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The citizenry has already "re-elected" a known murderous international criminal to high public office. I don't have much trust in the citizenry anymore.
quote:
...if IF we go they way you envision, THEN WE DESERVE IT. The final arbiter in all of this is the citzenry.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/27/2005 13:01:01 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 14:31:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush. At least our Supreme Court would prevent things like this.
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=5
Is this really relevant? You could post links to hundreds of countries with such track records and you'd find at least half were US allies. And as to whether or not we have a better system, of course we do.
(Though there might be an inmate in Texas who'd argue that. Bush isn't an Iran Mullah, but I can't say he's the picture of innocence either. current death row list contains some who murdered as teens)
[emotional outburst]But this is your reason to bomb Iran? The point of Hersh's investigative work was to point out the Bush 'cult' thinks they can bomb a nuke site in Iran and the Middle East will thank us.
If Bush had shown good judgment in his first 4 years, if he hadn't drug us into a worthless failed war in Iraq, if he treated the North Korean nuclear threat as seriously as the Iranian one, if he was going after the unsecured, already in existence, nuclear bombs that are rusting in the former Soviet Union, if he used the US's power and resources to improve the lives of people in the countries that are dangerously growing terrorists, then, I might see your point about the way he's choosing to deal with the Iranian nuclear threat.
Rub, no one would argue we want to prevent nuclear bombs from being used either as threats or as attacks. But Bush's stupid blind religious ignorance is going to get us all killed.[/emotional outburst] |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/27/2005 14:33:57 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 15:07:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
In comparison with what Iran has, I choose Bush. At least our Supreme Court would prevent things like this.
What does this have to do with anything?
Just stating that you'd rather live in the US than in Iran? Join the fucking club.
As far as the Iranian nukes go... the US is fucking UNDERMINING the efforts of our allies to get Iran to willingly lay down their nuke programs.
Personally, who fucking cares if an insane dictator gets nukes? Obviously not the US, as we have allowed how many fuckin nutjobs to get nukes recently? N Korea? Pakistan? to name a few....
Nobody will EVER use a nuke against the US. Why? Because if they do, they will recieve it back with interest. They, and their nation, would cease to exist. The only concievable way we could ever be nuked is if WE push one of these nuts into a corner where they percieve no other option. How to avoid that? Just hire a gdamn hostage negotiator for advice. Keep them talking and eventually you convince them of the folly of their ways (most times). If you pressure them, they get defensive and aggressive. Why do we think that dealing with nations is different than dealing with individuals, except in consequence?
We are the power in this world, and we are misusing it in such an insane way right now that it pisses me off.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 15:31:51 [Permalink]
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My comment (Should have made it clear first, my fault) was this attitude GW is the anti-christ, Hilter mass murderer that is prevelant in this board. There are far worse leaders. BTW I voted libertarian.
Should we bomb the Iran sites? Israel did it to Iraq. If Iran is in violation of the Non-proliferation treaty, what does the international community do? The UN has no teeth. Sanctions? Resolutions? Come on that is about as useful as coitus interuptus is for birth control.
As far as I know the multi-party talks with N Korea are still going on. China is leaning on N. Korea and they can. N. Korea get's its oil and other resources from them. But who can lean on Iran???
Heck Clinton missed the boat with Pakistan and India when they detonated theirs and N Korea was his failure. He got snookered by Chairmain Chia-Head.
What the main issue is the Pre-Emption Policy. To clarify my view on the policy, It basically states that when we believe that there is a credible threat to our nation or national interest, we will strike first.
Pre-Emption does work. Israel did it in the 6 Day War. That is why it was only 6 days. They achieved total air superiority.
If England and Russia did it Germany in 1939, then WWII might not have happened. If you were president before Pearl Harbour and knew that Japan was planning to attack, would you have ordered a pre-emptive strike on the naval yards.
But pre-emption has its limits. What saved us in the Cold War was Mutual Assured Destruction. We believed that the Soviets were sane enough to not want to end the world.
However, after 9/11 can we say the same about Iran. Who are creating suicide Bombers in Iraq. http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041129/news_1n29bombers.html
The Gov't of Iran, the Mullah's have no love for us and incite the public to view the US as the "Great Satan." Can we trust them? Can we trust them to say, We got the Bomb but we won't use it unless provoked.
We all seem to have the myth that the world was safe before GW went after Afghanistan and Iraq. It never was. Tell that to the victims of Darfur, Rwanda, Srebenicia, the FARC and Paramilitaries in Columbia, the Islamic fundie terrorist group in Algeria.
The world was and never will be safe.
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