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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2005 : 00:48:28 [Permalink]
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Something besides the obvious bothers me about this push for ID since the Reagan Administration. I went to grade school in the sixties, and even though we were forced to pray in school, we were taught evolution--Not creationism. Plus, I went to school in New England and in the deep south.
We were taught the story of Biblical creation in Sunday School.
Today, I often hear stories about kids that aren't religious, but know nothing of evolution. Are we going backwards? Was everyone else here taught the basics of evolution and how science works in grade school, or am I the aberation? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 02:50:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Something besides the obvious bothers me about this push for ID since the Reagan Administration. I went to grade school in the sixties, and even though we were forced to pray in school, we were taught evolution--Not creationism. Plus, I went to school in New England and in the deep south.
We were taught the story of Biblical creation in Sunday School.
Today, I often hear stories about kids that aren't religious, but know nothing of evolution. Are we going backwards? Was everyone else here taught the basics of evolution and how science works in grade school, or am I the aberation?
Nope. I got much the same in the late '40s and '50s, in the deep south. The difference is that I was seldom forced into Sunday School.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 03:06:35 [Permalink]
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I don't remember much from those fuzzy high school daze...But I do remember going to the LA Museum of Science in elementary school and seeing a display of primates to humans. I'm not even sure now if it was skulls, skeletons or the whole creatures, but I remember being impressed it was pretty clear that was the correct explanation. I vaguely remember there was controversy mentioned by at least one teacher, just noting it, though. There was definitely no creation discussed though the controversy explanation might have mentioned contradicting the Bible was part of the brouhaha.
My son's physics textbook, (9th grade), has this stupid statement in the front that says science doesn't really contradict religious beliefs, it complements them. The fact they felt it necessary says a lot.
We be regressin! |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/02/2005 03:09:28 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 07:12:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Something besides the obvious bothers me about this push for ID since the Reagan Administration. I went to grade school in the sixties, and even though we were forced to pray in school, we were taught evolution--Not creationism. Plus, I went to school in New England and in the deep south.
We were taught the story of Biblical creation in Sunday School.
Today, I often hear stories about kids that aren't religious, but know nothing of evolution. Are we going backwards? Was everyone else here taught the basics of evolution and how science works in grade school, or am I the aberation?
I went to school in the 80's and early 90's in Oklahoma and never was taught even that there was a controversy. Science was science, and biblical crap was what came up in Sunday school. I knew that there were people who bought into the biblical-literalist six-day thing, but even as a good, young, Christian, I thought that was BS. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 08:57:11 [Permalink]
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| I went to high school in the 80's and only got one mention of it in class. The teacher talked about it for one day in bioligy class, and boy was he nervous. But at the time the school board was forcing him to talk about it. At the time I thought it should not have been talked about in class, since it was a religish belief and not hard science. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 10:13:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Isaiah, what you are suggesting is a supernatural creator.
In your previous post, you differentiate supernatural creator from aliens, claiming that aliens as the ID force forces the question of who created the aliens, eventually leading to a "supernatural" creator that was different than aliens. My scenario involved nothing but an infinite line of aliens.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The inevitable conclusion of the ID argument must be a supernatural designer. They SAY they don't argue for a designer, but they totally reject the idea that any life could arise from random chance. So, if they try to give you the line about aliens or some other designer, the question then is, who designed the aliens? Follow the logic out and the ONLY possible original designer is a supernatural one.
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For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com
"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude
“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2005 : 15:13:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
In your previous post, you differentiate supernatural creator from aliens, claiming that aliens as the ID force forces the question of who created the aliens, eventually leading to a "supernatural" creator that was different than aliens. My scenario involved nothing but an infinite line of aliens.
quote:
Supernanural: Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
If it exists outside of this universe, it is supernatural.
Or, if we examine your proposal more in depth, and grant you the proposition that multiple universes can pop into existance from the end of another, and that somehow information can be passed on from one to the next, then we are left with the very same question. Who was the original designer? The only possible answer, according to ID, is a supernatural one. Remember, one of the major statements of ID is that life is to complext to arise from the combination of chance and natural laws. There has to be a designer, and therfore there must also be an original designer. The only possible original designer then, is "god".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 16:36:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
In your previous post, you differentiate supernatural creator from aliens, claiming that aliens as the ID force forces the question of who created the aliens, eventually leading to a "supernatural" creator that was different than aliens. My scenario involved nothing but an infinite line of aliens.
quote:
Supernanural: Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
If it exists outside of this universe, it is supernatural.
Or, if we examine your proposal more in depth, and grant you the proposition that multiple universes can pop into existance from the end of another, and that somehow information can be passed on from one to the next, then we are left with the very same question. Who was the original designer? The only possible answer, according to ID, is a supernatural one. Remember, one of the major statements of ID is that life is to complext to arise from the combination of chance and natural laws. There has to be a designer, and therfore there must also be an original designer. The only possible original designer then, is "god".
I do need those granted to escape "supernatural." But once granted, the problem with your logic here is the use of the word "original," implying an origin. Infinite time takes care of that in my fantasy world. It has no origin, scientific or supernatural, just laws of physics: Always was, always will be. |
For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com
"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude
“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin |
| Edited by - Isaiah on 02/03/2005 16:40:50 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 17:16:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Infinite time takes care of that in my fantasy world. It has no origin, scientific or supernatural, just laws of physics: Always was, always will be.
Then, per ID, no life could ever exist. Remember, they claim that life is to complex to arise as a combination of chance and natural laws. Your aliens could never come to be without some help.
And anyway, time is a function of space. We can clearly see that space, within our universe, is not infinite, and therefore neither is time.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 17:31:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Infinite time takes care of that in my fantasy world. It has no origin, scientific or supernatural, just laws of physics: Always was, always will be.
Then, per ID, no life could ever exist. Remember, they claim that life is to complex to arise as a combination of chance and natural laws. Your aliens could never come to be without some help.
And anyway, time is a function of space. We can clearly see that space, within our universe, is not infinite, and therefore neither is time.
Okay. |
For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com
"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude
“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin |
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pspano58
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
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pspano58
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 17:23:59 [Permalink]
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You're all a bunch of morons. How anyone can believe in evolution (macro, not micro) is beyond me. What a crock!
They (the atheistic scientific and academic community) actually have you believing that you evolved from a rock 4.5 billion years ago!
Take a dog and try to mate it with a cat. You can't.
Take 2 species of dog and mate them. You may get a new species, but you always get a dog or a deformed dog. You never get a new type of animal. It always is a dog-type of creature.
It's never a cat and it's never a frog.
Yet you actually believe that it rained on rocks and the rocks "came to life" and then it "became" a new type of creature and then it"became" another new type of creature and then finally we have mankind. Sounds like a fairytale to me.
I'm not saying evolution is "proven" incorrect.
It's not proven incorrect and it's not proven right.
It is a theory, at best.
There is no hard evidence that proves evolution, yet so many embrace the theory because if it is true, then it discredits the bible.
And if the bible is discredited, then that means that we don't have to listen to what it says and we can then lead our lives exactly the way we want to lead it, and there are no consequences in the future.
Kind of a convenient little theory, isn't it? |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 17:51:52 [Permalink]
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Welcome to the SFN, pspano58!
quote:
You're all a bunch of morons. How anyone can believe in evolution (macro, not micro) is beyond me. What a crock!
Can you explain the difference between macro and mirco evolution and how micro does not lead into macro?
quote:
They (the atheistic scientific and academic community) actually have you believing that you evolved from a rock 4.5 billion years ago!
Who ever said that we believe we evolved from a rock? This is certainly not the case. I personally think life started from inorganic matter, but this is a far cry from a "rock."
quote:
Take a dog and try to mate it with a cat. You can't.
Yes, this is very true. But what the hell does it have to do with evolution? Does evolution say a dog evolved into a cat?
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Take 2 species of dog and mate them. You may get a new species, but you always get a dog or a deformed dog. You never get a new type of animal. It always is a dog-type of creature.
This is true... most of the time. There have been experiments such as dealing with plants where there was a genetic mutation and the resulting plant was not the same species as the parent.
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It's never a cat and it's never a frog.
Again, true. But does evolution say it should be?
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Yet you actually believe that it rained on rocks and the rocks "came to life" and then it "became" a new type of creature and then it"became" another new type of creature and then finally we have mankind. Sounds like a fairytale to me.
Rained rocks? What? Do you mean a meteor shower?
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It is a theory, at best.
Any one who says this does not understand what a scientific theory is. It is only a theory that planets revolve around the Sun, and gravity is only a theory. What does that say about evolution only being a theory?
quote:
There is no hard evidence that proves evolution, yet so many embrace the theory because if it is true, then it discredits the bible.
Genetics, fossils, age of the earth, astronomy (organic compounds exist in space), examples of natural selection in nature, beneficial mutations, examples of mutations in the lab, and the list goes on.
quote:
And if the bible is discredited, then that means that we don't have to listen to what it says and we can then lead our lives exactly the way we want to lead it, and there are no consequences in the future.
I disagree. I know what is right and what is wrong. I am not a baby, I can make my mind up for myself. I don't need someone telling me what to do. I know hurting other people is wrong, and helping them is right. Don't you? Or did you need someone to tell you that?
quote:
Kind of a convenient little theory, isn't it?
Yes, it is an extremely convenient theory. It is especially rare to have a theory which unites a vast amount of other sciences, and to be the unifying theory in biology.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 18:21:52 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, pspano58, and may I say, "Well done!" Never have I seen so many straw men in such a small writing!
Tell me, are you a follower of Dr? Hovind?
quote:
It is a theory, at best.
Ah, but what a theory it is! Supported by all of the available evidence, it elegently explains the progression of life on earth.
Can you produce emperical evidence proving otherwise?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 18:22:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pspano58
And if the bible is discredited, then that means that we don't have to listen to what it says and we can then lead our lives exactly the way we want to lead it, and there are no consequences in the future.
Kind of a convenient little theory, isn't it?
The bible is a ridiculous piece of literature even if one omitted the fairy tale creation story. And atheists (independent of whether they accept evolution or not) do believe in consquences of the moral choices we make. They are simply not the imaginary threats that believers employ.
P.S. You seem really educated. Where did you get your doctorate?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/18/2005 18:23:11 |
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