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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  16:37:25  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
What do you think about the picture below :
Showing a map of America, Canada and Greenland and it's position relative to the gulf stream. In the bottom left corner is a picture of the horse found painted in the Lascaux caves in France dated at around 15,000 years ago.



Here's a couple of links :
Lascuax Caves (BBC News) : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/975360.stm

Author : Charles Webster
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  16:42:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Um, why would that picture "disprove" evolution?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:01:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
That depends on your definition of Evolution ???

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:11:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

That depends on your definition of Evolution ???



What, it depends on whether the theory of evolution precludes that "the map of America, Canada and Greenland and it's position relative to the gulf stream" looks vaguely like a horse?

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:24:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
Yes it does look a little like a horse.
However, that's not the important part.
The drawing found in a cave in France,
which is thought to be 15,000 years old
seems to show a horse along side a series of
dots which takes the shape of the gulf stream.
Look at the horse painting and you'll also see
that there are smaller yellow objects which
are the positions of the islands along the coastline.
There are 2 back legs for the horse, representing florida
and central America.
I'll spell it out for you. When was the gulf stream first discovered ?
How did neaderthals know about the gulf stream ?

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:28:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

Yes it does look a little like a horse.
However, that's not the important part.
The drawing found in a cave in France,
which is thought to be 15,000 years old
seems to show a horse along side a series of
dots which takes the shape of the gulf stream.
Look at the horse painting and you'll also see
that there are smaller yellow objects which
are the positions of the islands along the coastline.
There are 2 back legs for the horse, representing florida
and central America.
I'll spell it out for you. When was the gulf stream first discovered ?
How did neaderthals know about the gulf stream ?



So you're actually saying that you believe the picture from the cave looks more like a picture of the gulf stream than you believe that the picture of the gulf stream looks like a horse?

You're saying that you think Neanderthals in France were trying to paint a picture of North America and its water currents? I'd love to hear your theories on why they cared about the water currents on another continent.

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:37:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
Yes.
They were interested in water flows. Very interested. I believe this picture was drawn in the cave just prior to the Ice Age. In fact, I think the gulf stream played an important part in how the Ice age came about. It links the Miami Stone Circle with Europe. The gulf stream is known as 'the Conveyor belt'. I also believe that there is a lost civilization and this is just one piece of evidence to show it.
I have put some links to some discussions I have had on other forums on the Free Flow Pyramid link I posted earlier.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:49:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
The drawing found in a cave in France,
which is thought to be 15,000 years old
seems to show a horse along side a series of
dots which takes the shape of the gulf stream.

Takes the shape of the current gulf stream or the gulf stream as it would have looked 15,000 years ago?

Also, can you provide a map of the gulf stream itself? I would like something more to compare than a map you Photoshopped a dotted route over. Thanks.

edited to add: I did find this page which has a reasonably clear map of the route. I can't say it matches some of the contortions you've made in yours (especially the large northward bulge, which you've indicated in red) to get it to resemble the cave painting. Also, the bulge on your map should be right under the horse's neck, while onthe painting of the horse the bulge is just above its front leg.

I say its very flimsy evidence to suggest that prehistoric Europeans were a seafaring people, or privy to a great lost one.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 18:07:09
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  17:53:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
So, I still fail to see how this relates to evolution at all.

As far as I know, evolution is the theory that "existing animals and plants developed by a process of gradual, continuous change from previously existing forms." (Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth edition) http://www.bartleby.com/65/ev/evolutio.html

Or, in more beautiful terms,
"THE AFFINITIES of all the beings of the same class have sometimes been represented by a great tree. I believe this simile largely speaks the truth. The green and budding twigs may represent existing species; and those produced during each former year may represent the long succession of extinct species . . . The limbs divided into great branches, and these into lesser and lesser branches, were themselves once, when the tree was small, budding twigs; and this connexion of the former and present buds by ramifying branches may well represent the classification of all extinct and living species in groups subordinate to groups . . . From the first growth of the tree, many a limb and branch has decayed and dropped off, and these lost branches of various sizes may represent those whole orders, families, and genera which have now no living representatives, and which are known to us only from having been found in a fossil state . . . As buds give rise by growth to fresh buds, and these, if vigorous, branch out and overtop on all a feebler branch, so by generation I believe it has been with the Tree of Life, which fills with its dead and broken branches the crust of the earth, and covers the surface with its ever branching and beautiful ramifications" (Darwin, 1859).


What, pray tell, is your definition of evolution?

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:01:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah

So, I still fail to see how this relates to evolution at all.

It doesn't. He just mistakingly thinks that "primitive cave men" shouldn't have known about the gulf stream (probably true), and so this revelation means they were "more evolved than we thought," and hence, disproves evoution.

Of course, science has known for a long time that prehistoric men had a cranial capacity as large as modern humans, so there is nothing biologically earth-shaking about the idea that primitive peoples could have mapped out the Gulf Stream if they had come into contact with it. Of course, first we would need proof they had.

This is not it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 18:03:37
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:06:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Let me try to understand this:

A picture drawn on a cave 15,000 years ago of a horse just happens to seem to resemble North America and the Gulf Stream shows how life did not change from one form to another and that a lost civilization existed which was able to travel across the Atlantic.

Did I miss anything?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:07:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah

So, I still fail to see how this relates to evolution at all.

It doesn't. He just mistakingly thinks that "primitive cave men" shouldn't have known about the gulf stream (probably true), and so this revelation means they were "more evolved than we thought," and hence, disproves evoution.


Wouldn't it have been more fun (and helpful) to step him through his thinking and keep saying "I don't understand the connection here" (which would be true)? What's the good of being a skeptic if you're not trying to help people?

Isaiah

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:14:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
HH, The map you found was identical to the one I used to map the Gulf stream. No, the bulge in my diagram is under the neck. The neck being Greenland. The red dots show a change in the flow. If you look at the link you posted you will see an identical bulge there. The bulge in the primary stream itself is slightly different to the modern map but not significantly.
I would say that each dot represents a day of free flow along the gulf stream.

My definition of evolution is that we haven't evolved naturally. Our imagination is only confined to the limits of our knowledge not time.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:15:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah
Wouldn't it have been more fun (and helpful) to step him through his thinking and keep saying "I don't understand the connection here" (which would be true)? What's the good of being a skeptic if you're not trying to help people?

I prefer to skip to the heart of an argument. The evolution aspect isn't really important to his main contention (and least thus far) and so seemed to me better to dispell quickly, rather than belabor.

And pointing out his errors is being helpful, just in a different way. I don't have the time or patience to step anybody through anything. But if you would like to, be my guest.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 18:29:10
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:28:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Isaiah's Homepage Send Isaiah a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

My definition of evolution is that we haven't evolved naturally. Our imagination is only confined to the limits of our knowledge not time.



You mean if a teacher asked you on a test, "What is evolution?" then you would write "we haven't evolved naturally"?

I think you are still not telling me your definition of evolution. Whether or not you believe in it, you should be able to tell me a definition. For example, most people here don't believe in homeopathy, but they could still tell you the definition of the word.

What does the word EVOLUTION mean?

For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com

"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude

“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin
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geni
New Member

21 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  18:37:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit geni's Homepage Send geni a Private Message
Can you explain why you are dissmissing the luna calender theory?
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